except... he's fictionalOriginally Posted by wm
Regarding tactics that make the best use of what you have--if that's the marker for a great general , then I guess we could include the character played by Patrick Swayze in "Red Dawn" in our list.
You're probably right here, I'm just a huge fan of Suomussalmi. Can't get the image of Finnish territorials on skis cutting up the Red Army out of my head.
You know, of course, that if we're down to listing fictional characters and tactical operations then we can just say Maximus Decimus Meridius and forget about the rest.
I'm thinking this thread has pretty much run it's course.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
Unfortunately, I tend to agree. I would, however, like to get one last opinion. The Germans had a field marshal during WWII by the name of Ferdinand Schörner. I am reasonably sure Schörner made his rank by virtue of the fact he was supposed to have been a Nazi stalwart, though I am not positive of that. He rose up in rank with much of the old guard of the Prussian general corps (he was born in 1892, making him a few years younger than some), so he probably wasn't incompetent, but I just wonder how good he really was. Despite his closeness with Hitler, the man ran his own show and on more than one occasion, defied the "great" general/politician/idiot/madman. With v. Manstein's departure, Schörner seemed to be the superstar of the Eastern Front (such as anyone could be in 1944-1945).
So... with that in mind, I wonder how good a general this guy really was. Any opinions... ?
Best wishes,
Fred.
Since #1 post in this thread called for generals, I'm not sure about including state leaders, like Alexander the Great, Darius the Great, or Frederick the Great. Ceasar is a border case, as at the time of his conquests he was in a triumvirate with Crassus and Pompeius.
Going strictly for generales, a number of WW2 Germans sure do qualify.
And Islam produced a whole range of incredible successful generals like Khalid ibn al-Walid (I think he was mentioned), Timur (also a border case, as he was not a state leader, but acted as one, and founded an empire), and also not yet mentioned I think Robert Guiscard.
Also I think the Spanish conqistadores were not yet mentioned, even though their rate of utilized assets vs gains (or whatever you might call it) is absolutely unique, winning a whole continent with only a handful of men.
I personally like Wallenstein, even though his impact was rather regional.
And on this U.S.-heavy forum Douglas MacArthur was not yet mentioned?
Last edited by Distiller; 12-13-2007 at 05:38 PM.
How about the generalship of Osama bin Laden? His impact is certainly way beyond regional, and, like Wallenstein and the effects of the Thirty Years War, many see him and his war of terror as evil.
You are right Colonel but People don't like to admit that. He understands EBO and he understands Targeting. His failure for us fortunately was he could not continue to press the attack or we would have been in deep trouble.
George Washington is number one
Well if the criteria are understanding the war you're in, and implementing a strategy to win it, then my list is below.
Gen Washington has my vote for best in American history. Consider what he had to work with, where he had to go, and what he accomplished. Yes, I know, he only won three battles, if you don't count the successful evacuations, but the man understood the nature of his war and kept that always in mind. He also coordinated with Allies (French and various Indian tribes) to include the French Navy. Now that, for 1783, was a grand accomplishment.
I think old George gets completely ignored. My list is American only as I don't feel competent to go abroad.
1. Washington
2. Grant
3. Marshall
4. Pershing
5. Eisenhower
6. Winfield Scott
7. Sherman
8. LeMay (both during WWII and Cold War)
9. Jimmy Doolittle
10. Vinegar Joe Stillwell
All these guys showed imagination, innovation, took risks and understood the nature of the war they were in. And, all except Grant, Scott, and Sherman had to handle Allies.... which is truly an art form. Previous comments have Zinni on peoples' lists. I'd concur and think that if we had him there instead of Franks, it would be a very different ball game now.
All this is a fun parlor game, but the real issue Yingling's article got me thinking about is why, with all our professional education, service Academies, and other "challenges" and "opportunities" do we have so precious few around like these today?
Perhaps its because they, had careers filled with innovation and risk, just showing up for normal duties in their peace time army? I don't know but I wish someone would figure it out.
Fred, what I know about Shoerner is scant, although he did have a terrible task to perform when he commanded German and Finnish Mountain troops on the Murmansk Front, and it is not clear that anyone could have done much better. I remember reading about German and Finnish operations on the Kola Pensinsula, and it is almost impossible to think of a worse place to have to fight - countless giant boulders blocking the passage of almost any vehicle without road-construction, which itself bordered on the impossible under the prevailing climatic conditions; no vegetation or natural cover aside from said boulders; inadequate clothing, shelter, and rations, and of course, inability to adapt to the conditions of life in a Polar region, until the Germans learned from the Finns how to wage Arctic Warfare; and finally, being at the wrong end of a grossly overlong supply "route", made Operational-level action effectively impossible. Even Tactical action was difficult in the extreme.
He and Rommel were competitors, and both were old Gebirgsjaegars; and both won the Pour le Merite in WWI. Schoerner must have had something truly exceptional about him to share in that very rare honour.
But it was under his command on the Eastern Front that the Battle of Targul Frumos was fought by German and Rumanian troops, and the actions of the GD in particular have been studied by NATO for decades now. Whether such studies focusing on Targul Frumos to the detriment of what else was going on on the Eastern Front in the months just before Operation Bagration are useful is admittedly arguable.
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As for great Air Force generals, Lord Dowding for his innovations in Strategic Air Defence (the "Dowding System"), and his performance leading up to and during the Battle of Britain.
Last edited by Norfolk; 01-05-2008 at 12:23 AM.
Shoerner commanded Army Group Center in the end days. I believe his failure to commit the AG reserves allowed the Russian to force a penetration south of Heinrici's Army Group Vistula at the Seelow Heights, which in turn force Heinrici to abandon a set of positions from which he had stopped Zhukov cold. Shoerner also had something to do with the Courland defense IIRC, but my memory is very sketchy here. I think he reached his Peter Principle level of comptence at the Regimental or division commander level in Finland. BTW, regarding Targul Frumos--having Hasso von Manteuffel as a division commander could probably have made even George McClellan or Ambrose Burnside look like an operational genius.
Regarding the Blue Max--from my read of Rommel's Infantry Attacks and other WWI German memoir materials, receiving that award would have no correlation with one's ability to perform well as a general officer. The German mountain troops had a "death-defying" aura or charisma about them similar to German aviators, the main winners of the medal. Perhaps that explains the medals more than anything else.
At the very least, it is quite the Ace to have up one's sleeve. Not to mention having certain Formations of the quality of the GD...
O.K don't shoot down this addition to the list too quickly but i'd like to make it
David Stirling.
I know he wasn't an actual general by rank but he did command an unit during the Africa campaign of WW2 that chose their own targets and so it was him, with help from his subordinates, that decdied where to take risks.
Also he showed considerable abilty to adapt as after Op Squatter went completely wrong he understood that it was time to change tactics and start to use the LRDG (Long Range desert Group, i think, can't be sure right now) to ferry his men to their targets.
Also the unit he created was credited with disabling more Axis aircraft over a 6 month period than the entire Allied air force in the area. Stirling took his orginial idea and created a unit that is commonally accepted to be the best special forces unit in the world.
oh and Sabutai obviously.
Scott.
P.S if any of these facts are wrong i apoligise.
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