It's Our Cage, Too

[SWJED]

17 May Washington Post commentary - It's Our Cage, Too by General Charles C. Krulak (USMC Ret.) and General Joseph P. Hoar (USMC Ret.).

Fear can be a strong motivator. It led Franklin Roosevelt to intern tens of thousands of innocent U.S. citizens during World War II; it led to Joseph McCarthy's witch hunt, which ruined the lives of hundreds of Americans. And it led the United States to adopt a policy at the highest levels that condoned and even authorized torture of prisoners in our custody.

Fear is the justification offered for this policy by former CIA director George Tenet as he promotes his new book. Tenet oversaw the secret CIA interrogation program in which torture techniques euphemistically called "waterboarding," "sensory deprivation," "sleep deprivation" and "stress positions" -- conduct we used to call war crimes -- were used. In defending these abuses, Tenet revealed: "Everybody forgets one central context of what we lived through: the palpable fear that we felt on the basis of the fact that there was so much we did not know."

We have served in combat; we understand the reality of fear and the havoc it can wreak if left unchecked or fostered. Fear breeds panic, and it can lead people and nations to act in ways inconsistent with their character...

[Tom Odom]

Hat tip to the Generals on this. I have made my assessment of Tenet and Tenet's scribblings pretty clear. I hope more speak out on this...

Tom

[LawVol]

It's easy to give in to the idea of torture as a solution especially in specially-crafted scenarios such as those presented in the debates the other day. We can certainly all envision a scenario where we might actually torture someone or condone such action. However, if you listen to the scenarios presented you realize that they are unplausible. When do we ever know every single snippet of information except what a signle individual in our custody knows?

That being said, I have to admit that I've often thought of issue. The argument presented by the two Generals is probably the best I've heard. I would think that our use of torture or "enhanced interrogation techniques" (sounds like the fluff put in officer performance reports) really hurts our IO campaign. How can we argue that we are the moral side defending the rule of law when we manipulate it for our purposes?

Perhaps moving from a war to more of a law enforcement action, like Slapout suggested in another post, would eliminate this? Working from an LE has its issues but the rule on torture is fairly clear.

[Sargent]

Perhaps, in addition to the arguments already deftly made by the generals, it might help to move us back from the edge to consider the effect that such policies and actions have on those who must implement them. Do we really want to subject our own people to such brutality? Is this really what Americans want for their personnel in uniform, people who have volunteered to serve? Do we really want legions of folks to have to deal with the aftermath of such actions? We barely have the resources or desire to deal with the run of the mill after-effects of combat, the addition of such a burden will more than exceed the capabilities of the system.

[goesh]

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offen...e/robbery.html

2004:
Murders 16,137
Rape 94,635
Robbery 401,326
Aggravated
Assault 854,137

From another website:

2002:
2.6 million reports of child abuse involving 4.5 million children
896,000 children identified as being abused/neglected
1400 dead from abuse/neglect (about 4 a day killed)

Defenders can't be held to standards much higher from the collective from whence they originate. The recent troop survey pretty much confirms this and there is a fairly large swatch of mainstream America that really doesn't care what happens to those forces that seek our demise.

[VinceC]

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offen...e/robbery.html

2004:
Murders 16,137
Rape 94,635
Robbery 401,326
Aggravated
Assault 854,137

From another website:

2002:
2.6 million reports of child abuse involving 4.5 million children
896,000 children identified as being abused/neglected
1400 dead from abuse/neglect (about 4 a day killed)

Defenders can't be held to standards much higher from the collective from whence they originate. The recent troop survey pretty much confirms this and there is a fairly large swatch of mainstream America that really doesn't care what happens to those forces that seek our demise.

Those numbers are why many people in other countries say they don't necessarily think the United States has all the answers on how to conduct a civil society. I attended a seminar last summer in which a European journalist said it would be absurd for the U.S. government to invest a single dollar in public diplomacy while there is still an ongoing national debate on whether or not torture is in any way permissible.

An important aspect overlooked in this debate is whether or not it results in accurate information. Most of the discussion seems to be driven by the odd assumption that torture somehow results in better information than other forms of questioning. This doesn't square with the facts. Its use over the centuries was pretty effective in getting Conversos to confress they were really relapsed Jews, and in getting witches to confess to dancing with the Devil. More recently, there were numerous cases from the Third Reich and Stalin era, as well as in Vietnam, in which motivated individuals were able to refrain from giving damaging testimony while undergoing prolonged physical torture.

[carl]

The generals make the point that this is caused by fear. Fear is contagious, but so is courage. If moral courage was more widely distributed among the GS triple digit suits, we would not be in this trouble. I mean the moral courage to stand and say "This is wrong. We will not do it.", with no further arguement or explanation.

In the book "U-505" by Admiral Gallery, he tells the story of having the youngest, most vulnerable appearing captured U-boat sailor brought to him. He told the sailor to give what information he knew or the the Admiral would have him thrown overboard. The sailor straightened himself up and said "I am a German soldier." At this the admiral said he became immediately and completely ashamed at what he had done to the man. He sent the him back to his quarters.

We should all feel like the admiral when this subject is discussed.

[Jedburgh]

I suppose the constant recurrence of this theme is due to the level of moral/ethical discomfort it causes - because it is still occurring.

Yet again, I wish to inform all late-comers to this board that the subject of the ethics and efficacy of torture in interrogation has been discussed before on SWC, in varying contexts, here, here and here.