Bangladesh: Secular - v- Islamist?

[Bill Moore]

I have only read a very few articles on this so access what I have to say with that in mind.

It seems it is an anti-Islamist rather than anti-Muslim movement. The really interesting thing is that the trump card the Islamists normally play, the holier than thou card is being vitiated. The two things that are doing that are personal vengeance and sort of an anti-collaborator sentiment. Those two things are a pretty powerful counter to the Islamists' normal arguments. When they say 'Allah is with me.' and are met with 'You collaborated with the Pak Army and killed my uncle.', they aren't so persuasive.

The demonstrators in Shahbag square don't want the Islamist leaders to lighten up, they want them dead, specific Islamist leaders to be killed. That seems a bit unusual.

Carl, good catch, that is not what I meant to write. Actually I was trying to capture the Islamist Movement as a non-liberal movement, but based on your comment I'll add the anti-Islamist movement because there are in fact two movements (neither of which are Springs, they have endured for decades). There is no anti-Muslim movement. I'll correct the post.

To your other point, I think a lot of people are realizing if these Islamist leaders aren't permanently removed they'll continue to be a threat to the safety who want to live their own lives without the extremists dictating what is right or wrong. The extremists feel completely justified pursuing their ends through acts of terror, shooting young girls for going to school, giving a woman who has been raped a 100 lashes because she had sex outside of marriage, and number of other obviously insanely stupid rules. I see nothing wrong with wanting them dead, I hope that movement gains steam.

[carl]

To your other point, I think a lot of people are realizing if these Islamist leaders aren't permanently removed they'll continue to be a threat to the safety who want to live their own lives without the extremists dictating what is right or wrong. The extremists feel completely justified pursuing their ends through acts of terror, shooting young girls for going to school, giving a woman who has been raped a 100 lashes because she had sex outside of marriage, and number of other obviously insanely stupid rules. I see nothing wrong with wanting them dead, I hope that movement gains steam.

I wonder if large numbers of people publicly wanting these guys dead in Bangladesh is because of historical and political factors unique to Bangladesh. I don't see it in many other places. For example what is being seen in Bangladesh would be impossible to see in Pakistan.

There is nothing much we can do about any of this now. The tragedy is we could have had a very real and positive effect if we had had any brains or backbone eight or ten years ago, or even five or six. All we had to do was be public about the what the Pak Army/ISI was doing and cut the money. But we were and are spineless dopes so we gave the devil the money to spawn and nurture a bloody fanged creature and now many will die because of that. One of the things that nourishes that bloody fanged creature is perception of weakness and when we complete our bug-out from Afghanistan it will grow like we haven't seen before. Maybe, maybe, it can be stopped in Bangladesh but it isn't being stopped in many other places.

Oh well, we were great once.

[Ray]

Bangladesh is on the roll.

It is becoming an economic powerhouse in its own way and the people are more keen for improvement of their lives than being held back with inconsequential issues, even though Islam is important in their private lives.

Bengalis are not the archetypal Muslims. While Islam continues to be important, the culture, language and tradition is equally important. That is why the Language Agitation of the 1950s (when Pakistan wanted to impose Urdu as the language) laid the seeds for the Liberation of Bangladesh in 1971.

Jamaait has only 4% support and they have only 2 members in the Parliament. Yet, their clout in creating issues cannot be ruled out given that Saudi money sustain them and their Wahaabi fundamentalism.

Yet, it appears that the atrocities of the collaborators with the Pakistan Army in
East Pakistan still continues to haunt even the new generations, who were not born when the atrocities happened.

The Jamaait is an ally of the Opposition BNP, but the BNP apparently is caught in a bind.

One has to watch the scene in Bangladesh as it develops!

[carl]

Ray:

The Islamists are not ones to yield or compromise. They have outside support.

The game can be played with great savagery in that part of the world and the situation in Bangladesh reminds me a little of the situation in Indonesia in the mid-60s. Do you think things will go that far?

[Ray]

Ray:

The Islamists are not ones to yield or compromise. They have outside support.

The game can be played with great savagery in that part of the world and the situation in Bangladesh reminds me a little of the situation in Indonesia in the mid-60s. Do you think things will go that far?

The fundamentalists are not the one to give up easily and that is true.

That is why they have been able to worm back into the BD society.

Saudi money is playing a great role in BD with their backing these elements.

BNP (the Opposition) is led by the wife of an ex Pak Army officer and there will be some empathy for Pakistan.

What one is watching for, is how the BD army reacts.

The Army in BD, though is not that involved in governance as they are in Pakistan, yet they are but legatee of the Pak Army ethos in so far as organising coups is concerned.

[carl]

Ray:

I know I am asking you to go out on a limb in replying to this, but I am interested in the view of an Indian military man.

Can the Islamists in Bangladesh be stopped without a lot of killing being done? That is why I asked about similarities to Indonesia. Do you think the Babgladesh army can or would do that?

[Ray]

Ray:

I know I am asking you to go out on a limb in replying to this, but I am interested in the view of an Indian military man.

Can the Islamists in Bangladesh be stopped without a lot of killing being done? That is why I asked about similarities to Indonesia. Do you think the Babgladesh army can or would do that?

I am a Bengali and my family roots emanate from East Bengal (then it became East Pakistan and now Bangladesh).

The Bengali Muslims are a different kettle of fish than the archetypal Muslim. While they are very strident about the religion, the majority are quite laid back. And unlike in other Muslim countries, the woman are empowered and do claim equal status as men in their families.

That is why it is not surprising to see two Women deciding the fate of Bangladesh ie. the present PM and the earlier one.

It may surprise many, but the Shahbag movement has been spearheaded by girls in the range of 20 and 22 years,namely Srabanti Akhtar Barsha (20), Lucky, Shaon and Pretilata. These girls are known as "Agni Kanya" (Girls on Fire).

As I see it, Bengalis are an emotional lot and get 'fired' up rather easily on emotive issues. It is interesting that most of those in the Shahbagh Movement were born many years after the Liberation of Bangladesh and so would not know of the atrocities committed by the Pakistan Army and their collaborators, namely the razakaars (or Jamaait). And yet, they are supporting the Bangladesh Supreme Court verdict giving death sentence to one and demanding that all the accused should be put to death.

It appears that, while on the surface, there was no such outcry so far, but then with the verdict, old memories (that were possibly handed down by those who suffered during the Liberation) have been stoked and hence the demand.

What has to be seen is the influence of the BNP (it is no pushover) to counter this movement since it is not to its interest in a political sense. BNP's ally, as one would recall is the Jamaait and which in turn is flush with Saudi Wahaabi money.

Can money win over and defeat the movement?

The Bangladesh Govt is considering banning the Jamaait.

Obviously, the sum total is very emotive on both sides of the spectrum.

And Bangladesh is no stranger to violent protests.