Bangladesh: Secular - v- Islamist?

[carl]

The interesting thing about the way things appear to be setting up over there is you have Islamists, who believe Allah is on their side no matter what they do, vs. the relatives of people who were killed in 1971 who blame the Islamists for the deaths of their kin. They want some back. There doesn't seem to be room for compromise.

[Bill Moore]

Putting this in perspective. There is a long history of violent clashes between the Awami League and BNP (to include BNP's ally and to some extent surrogate force JI). Most assessments indicate the Islamists (JI) represent a minority that is losing steam, but a minority in one of the most densely populated nations in the world is still millions of people and a serious security issue if mobilized to fight.

The BNP/JI appear to be losing steam politically, so it is only natural for them based on their philosophy to resort to extremism to stop the gradual (or not so gradual) liberalization of Bangladesh.

The current level of violence isn't bad relatively based on Bangladesh history. This type of violence is usually short lived, but often repeated (cycles). We won't be able to assess the seriousness of the current crisis until more time passes.

There are two parallel movements that are clashing. One is the anti-Islamist movement that the government and majority represent, and the other is the anti-liberalization Spring movement that the BNP and JI represent. The anti-liberalism movement has nothing to do with freeing oppressed peoples, instead those commiting the violence want to oppress the people of Bangladesh with their brand of Sharia law. One can hope PM Hasina successfully enforces the law in a way that contains the violence while still allowing peaceful protests and the democratic process to work.

Places like Bangladesh are a good bellweather to see whether Islamist extremism is gaining or waning.

[carl]

This is an anti-Muslim Spring movement, it has nothing to do with freeing oppressed peoples, instead those commiting the violence want to oppress the people of Bangladesh....

Places like Bangladesh are a good bellweather to see whether Islamist extremism is gaining or waning.

I have only read a very few articles on this so access what I have to say with that in mind.

It seems it is an anti-Islamist rather than anti-Muslim movement. The really interesting thing is that the trump card the Islamists normally play, the holier than thou card is being vitiated. The two things that are doing that are personal vengeance and sort of an anti-collaborator sentiment. Those two things are a pretty powerful counter to the Islamists' normal arguments. When they say 'Allah is with me.' and are met with 'You collaborated with the Pak Army and killed my uncle.', they aren't so persuasive.

The demonstrators in Shahbag square don't want the Islamist leaders to lighten up, they want them dead, specific Islamist leaders to be killed. That seems a bit unusual.

[Bill Moore]

I have only read a very few articles on this so access what I have to say with that in mind.

It seems it is an anti-Islamist rather than anti-Muslim movement. The really interesting thing is that the trump card the Islamists normally play, the holier than thou card is being vitiated. The two things that are doing that are personal vengeance and sort of an anti-collaborator sentiment. Those two things are a pretty powerful counter to the Islamists' normal arguments. When they say 'Allah is with me.' and are met with 'You collaborated with the Pak Army and killed my uncle.', they aren't so persuasive.

The demonstrators in Shahbag square don't want the Islamist leaders to lighten up, they want them dead, specific Islamist leaders to be killed. That seems a bit unusual.

Carl, good catch, that is not what I meant to write. Actually I was trying to capture the Islamist Movement as a non-liberal movement, but based on your comment I'll add the anti-Islamist movement because there are in fact two movements (neither of which are Springs, they have endured for decades). There is no anti-Muslim movement. I'll correct the post.

To your other point, I think a lot of people are realizing if these Islamist leaders aren't permanently removed they'll continue to be a threat to the safety who want to live their own lives without the extremists dictating what is right or wrong. The extremists feel completely justified pursuing their ends through acts of terror, shooting young girls for going to school, giving a woman who has been raped a 100 lashes because she had sex outside of marriage, and number of other obviously insanely stupid rules. I see nothing wrong with wanting them dead, I hope that movement gains steam.

[carl]

To your other point, I think a lot of people are realizing if these Islamist leaders aren't permanently removed they'll continue to be a threat to the safety who want to live their own lives without the extremists dictating what is right or wrong. The extremists feel completely justified pursuing their ends through acts of terror, shooting young girls for going to school, giving a woman who has been raped a 100 lashes because she had sex outside of marriage, and number of other obviously insanely stupid rules. I see nothing wrong with wanting them dead, I hope that movement gains steam.

I wonder if large numbers of people publicly wanting these guys dead in Bangladesh is because of historical and political factors unique to Bangladesh. I don't see it in many other places. For example what is being seen in Bangladesh would be impossible to see in Pakistan.

There is nothing much we can do about any of this now. The tragedy is we could have had a very real and positive effect if we had had any brains or backbone eight or ten years ago, or even five or six. All we had to do was be public about the what the Pak Army/ISI was doing and cut the money. But we were and are spineless dopes so we gave the devil the money to spawn and nurture a bloody fanged creature and now many will die because of that. One of the things that nourishes that bloody fanged creature is perception of weakness and when we complete our bug-out from Afghanistan it will grow like we haven't seen before. Maybe, maybe, it can be stopped in Bangladesh but it isn't being stopped in many other places.

Oh well, we were great once.

[Ray]

Bangladesh is on the roll.

It is becoming an economic powerhouse in its own way and the people are more keen for improvement of their lives than being held back with inconsequential issues, even though Islam is important in their private lives.

Bengalis are not the archetypal Muslims. While Islam continues to be important, the culture, language and tradition is equally important. That is why the Language Agitation of the 1950s (when Pakistan wanted to impose Urdu as the language) laid the seeds for the Liberation of Bangladesh in 1971.

Jamaait has only 4% support and they have only 2 members in the Parliament. Yet, their clout in creating issues cannot be ruled out given that Saudi money sustain them and their Wahaabi fundamentalism.

Yet, it appears that the atrocities of the collaborators with the Pakistan Army in
East Pakistan still continues to haunt even the new generations, who were not born when the atrocities happened.

The Jamaait is an ally of the Opposition BNP, but the BNP apparently is caught in a bind.

One has to watch the scene in Bangladesh as it develops!

[carl]

Ray:

The Islamists are not ones to yield or compromise. They have outside support.

The game can be played with great savagery in that part of the world and the situation in Bangladesh reminds me a little of the situation in Indonesia in the mid-60s. Do you think things will go that far?