The US & Interrogation (catch all)

[Jedburgh]

JMIC thesis from Aug 02, with discovery credit given to a contributor to INTELST:

The History of MIS-Y: US Strategic Interrogation During World War II

...Using recently declassified material from the National Archives and Record Administration, this thesis seeks to capture the essence of the strategic interrogation program conducted under the auspices of the War Department’s Military Intelligence Service (code-named MIS-Y) with the mission of bringing selected German POWs from the European Theater of Operations to the U.S. for the purpose of gathering vital intelligence in support of the Allied war effort. This study examines the key elements of MIS-Y, to include the events that led to its founding; the program’s organization and facilities; the training it provided for its interrogation and operational support personnel; its methods for screening and selecting high value POWs; its process for interrogation and exploitation of captured documents; the Allied intelligence requirements that drove its operations; and the nature of the intelligence it produced and disseminated.

A primary objective of this thesis is to add to the Intelligence Community’s body of knowledge about the challenges and opportunities inherent in the strategic interrogation of POWs. It will also search this event in contemporary military history for timeless principles in the conduct of strategic level interrogation operations—principles that would guide a more effective intelligence program in support of future military operations....

Complete 162 page paper at the link.

[SWJED]

SWJ Blog - Waterboarding is Torture… Period by Malcolm Nance.

I’d like to digress from my usual analysis of insurgent strategy and tactics to speak out on an issue of grave importance to Small Wars Journal readers. We, as a nation, are having a crisis of honor.

Last week the Attorney General nominee Judge Michael Mukasey refused to define waterboarding terror suspects as torture. On the same day MSNBC television pundit and former Republican Congressman Joe Scarborough quickly spoke out in its favor. On his morning television broadcast, he asserted, without any basis in fact, that the efficacy of the waterboard a viable tool to be sued on Al Qaeda suspects.

Scarborough said, "For those who don't know, waterboarding is what we did to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who is the Al Qaeda number two guy that planned 9/11. And he talked …" He then speculated that “If you ask Americans whether they think it's okay for us to waterboard in a controlled environment … 90% of Americans will say 'yes.'” Sensing that what he was saying sounded extreme, he then claimed he did not support torture but that waterboarding was debatable as a technique: "You know, that's the debate. Is waterboarding torture? … I don't want the United States to engage in the type of torture that [Senator] John McCain had to endure."

In fact, waterboarding is just the type of torture then Lt. Commander John McCain had to endure at the hands of the North Vietnamese. As a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California I know the waterboard personally and intimately. SERE staff were required undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception. I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school’s interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques used by the US army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What was not mentioned in most articles was that SERE was designed to show how an evil totalitarian, enemy would use torture at the slightest whim. If this is the case, then waterboarding is unquestionably being used as torture technique...

Much more at the link...

[Gian P Gentile]

Jedburgh:

Thanks for posting your links. I will use them for future reference.

Didn't know you were an old Humint NCO. The Humint people I had working for me in Iraq in 2006 were top-notch, professional, and I trusted them greatly.

thanks for your service.

[Rex Brynen]

SWJ Blog - Waterboarding is Torture… Period by Malcolm Nance..

Excellent, excellent piece.

[goesh]

~from Malcolm Nance: 10/29/07:

"I’d like to digress from my usual analysis of insurgent strategy and tactics to speak out on an issue of grave importance to Small Wars Journal readers. We, as a nation, are having a crisis of honor."

He goes on to say:

"A torture victim can be made to say anything by an evil nation that does not abide by humanity, morality, treaties or rule of law. Today we are on the verge of becoming that nation. "

In the course of the essay he states:

"Are we willing to trade our nation’s soul for tactical intelligence?"

"Waterboarding will be one our future enemy’s go-to techniques because we took the gloves off to brutal interrogation. Now our enemies will take the gloves off and thank us for it."

In describing enhanced interrogation, he comments:

"One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American."

I think the full spectrum of American society needs to be addressed to get us all back on the path of righteous living. In particular, the message needs to get out to this strata of Americans - tell 'em hope floats, help is just around the corner and the full brunt of Public outrage is soon to be unleashed:

http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/cb/...05/summary.htm

During FFY 2005, an estimated 899,000 children in the 50 States, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico were determined to be victims of abuse or neglect.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/

Key Facts
• Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted.
• One in six American women are victims of sexual assault, and one in 33 men.
• In 2004-2005, there were an average annual 200,780 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.
• About 44% of rape victims are under age 18, and 80% are under age 30.

I would say the crisis of honor was unfolding some time ago and we were in a waterboard frame of mind long before Mr. Nance hit the print. The 1.2 million victims of domestic torture listed above were already questioning what it means to be an American while Mr. Nance was editing his essay. The selected audience of this forum is ultimately a product of the collective from which they emerge and until the collective is convinced that war is other than death, brutality and pain, this issue is not going away nor will it be resolved.

[Ken White]

. . .

• Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted.
• One in six American women are victims of sexual assault, and one in 33 men.
• In 2004-2005, there were an average annual 200,780 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.
• About 44% of rape victims are under age 18, and 80% are under age 30.

I would say the crisis of honor was unfolding some time ago and we were in a waterboard frame of mind long before Mr. Nance hit the print. The 1.2 million victims of domestic torture listed above were already questioning what it means to be an American while Mr. Nance was editing his essay. The selected audience of this forum is ultimately a product of the collective from which they emerge and until the collective is convinced that war is other than death, brutality and pain, this issue is not going away nor will it be resolved.

(emphasis added / kw)

Unfortunately true. War ain't pretty and isn't going to be...

[tequila]

Despite the ugly statistics quoted above, the fact remains that the vast majority of Americans are personally unacquainted with any form of violence approximating either torture or combat.

Thus the closest most will ever get to the real-life issue is through watching TV or movies. Needless to say most people involved in such productions also have little experience of either war or torture, and depictions of the same are often ridiculously sanitized or presented in the form most palatable for dramatic effect, titillation, and entertainment. Thus the constant reaching for Hollywood creations like Jack Bauer by many pro-torture advocates. This sort of justification by pop culture is perhaps the most outstanding sign of our national cultural decline in the face of terrorism.

[Sarajevo071]

There are rules to this game. The Geneva Conventions try to be explicit. Article 3 forbids “violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment, and torture.” It also bars “outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment.” The atrocious behavior of American troops in Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison is the most recent, and perhaps horrific, example of how things can go terribly wrong.

I do not think I will ever understand how fellow soldiers could do what they did. It may also be impossible to grasp fully how destructive their actions were — to the reputation of the intelligence corps, to our country, and to a world hoping for better from those who wear the army’s uniform. It doesn’t matter that those accused so far are mainly MPs. All soldiers, and to a greater extent, intelligence soldiers, are tarnished, if only by our proximity.

The abuses at Abu Ghraib are unforgivable not just because they were cruel, but because they set us back. The more a prisoner hates America, the harder he will be to break. The more a population hates America, the less likely its citizens will be to lead us to a suspect. One of our biggest successes in Afghanistan came when a valuable prisoner decided to cooperate not because he had been abused (he had not been), but precisely because he realized he would not be tortured. He had heard so many horror stories that when he was treated decently, his prior world view snapped, and suddenly we had an ally.

"The Interrogators"
Chris Mackey (pseudonym) & Greg Miller

[Uboat509]

I am so sick of Abu Ghraib being dredged up every time the subject of torture comes up. What happened at Abu Ghraib had nothing to do with intelligence gathering. It was a group of jackasses tormented prisoners because they thought it was funny and because they knew that they could get away with it because they were working in a closed area where no one could show up to check on them unanounced. Holding POTUS accountable for this is a bit like holding Mike Eisner accountable because the guy in the Goofy costume at Disneyland got grabby with somebody's mom.

SFC W

[Sarajevo071]

I am so sick of Abu Ghraib being dredged up every time the subject of torture comes up. What happened at Abu Ghraib had nothing to do with intelligence gathering. It was a group of jackasses tormented prisoners because they thought it was funny and because they knew that they could get away with it because they were working in a closed area where no one could show up to check on them unanounced. Holding POTUS accountable for this is a bit like holding Mike Eisner accountable because the guy in the Goofy costume at Disneyland got grabby with somebody's mom.

SFC W

I knew you wish to justify all this somehow and all of you wish to forget and pretend that this never happened, and more seriously that didn't have major influence on many other things that are here or they still coming, but my point (again) was this:

It may also be impossible to grasp fully how destructive their actions were — to the reputation of the intelligence corps, to our country, and to a world hoping for better from those who wear the army’s uniform.

The more a prisoner hates America, the harder he will be to break. The more a population hates America, the less likely its citizens will be to lead us to a suspect.

Wasn't relative autonomy trying to make that same point!?

[Sarajevo071]

Guantanamo military lawyer breaks ranks to condemn 'unconscionable' detention

An American military lawyer and veteran of dozens of secret Guantanamo tribunals has made a devastating attack on the legal process for determining whether Guantanamo prisoners are "enemy combatants".

The whistleblower, an army major inside the military court system which the United States has established at Guantanamo Bay, has described the detention of one prisoner, a hospital administrator from Sudan, as " unconscionable ".

His critique will be the centrepiece of a hearing on 5 December before the US Supreme Court when another attempt is made to shut the prison down. So nervous is the Bush administration of the latest attack – and another Supreme Court ruling against it – that it is preparing a whole new system of military courts to deal with those still imprisoned.

The whistleblower's testimony is the most serious attack to date on the military panels, which were meant to give a fig- leaf of legitimacy to the interrogation and detention policies at Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay. The major has taken part in 49 status review panels.

"It's a kangaroo court system and completely corrupt," said Michael Ratner, the president of the Centre for Constitutional Rights, which is co-ordinating investigations and appeals lawsuits against the government by some 1,000 lawyers. "Stalin had show trials, but at Guantanamo they are not even show trials because it all takes place in secret."
...

more here:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...?service=print

[Uboat509]

I knew you wish to justify all this somehow and all of you wish to forget and pretend that this never happened, and more seriously that didn't have major influence on many other things that are here or they still coming,

At what point did I try to justify what happened at Abu Ghraib, pretend it didn't happen or pretend that it had no effect? My point was that what happened at Abu Ghraib was a criminal act not a matter of policy, certainly not national policy.

SFC W

[tequila]

Uboat - So you do not believe what GEN Taguba found regarding GEN Miller bringing in Gitmo tactics, where MPs were asked to essentially soften up detainees for interrogators as having anything to do with the resulting abuses?

[Uboat509]

Tequila, I do not have time to read that entire report but I did skim through it and I did not see any thing that said that what actually occured at Abu G was authorized or condoned by the command. Yes, they were supposed to "soften up" the detainees but even before this whole thing blew up there were guidlines as to what was and was not authorized. I am going to go out on a limb and say that bringing your girlfriend (who is not a guard and has been specifically directed to stay out of the cell block) and acting like a bunch of drunken frat boys on pledge week was not written in those guidelines.

SFC W

[Sarajevo071]

At what point did I try to justify what happened at Abu Ghraib, pretend it didn't happen or pretend that it had no effect? My point was that what happened at Abu Ghraib was a criminal act not a matter of policy, certainly not national policy.

SFC W

My apologies for making this sound like I was talking just to you... I was not.

But, talking about "matter of policy" I will not agree with you (big surprise, right!?). See, for me it's simple. If it was NOT approved policy why then no one was really punished or put it jail!? Simple because they couldn't punish anyone that way since all of them defended they actions saying or they was ordered to do that or command was not clear or upper military echelon know what's going on and they let them do it... It was organized, controlled and un-punished torture and killings. Echo of those actions by U.S. military and political leaders will sound for long time.

[Uboat509]

My apologies for making this sound like I was talking just to you... I was not.

But, talking about "matter of policy" I will not agree with you (big surprise, right!?). See, for me it's simple. If it was NOT approved policy why then no one was really punished or put it jail!? Simple because they couldn't punish anyone that way since all of them defended they actions saying or they was ordered to do that or command was not clear or upper military echelon know what's going on and they let them do it... It was organized, controlled and un-punished torture and killings. Echo of those actions by U.S. military and political leaders will sound for long time.

Umm...All seven of them went to jail.

SFC W

[RTK]

Umm...All seven of them went to jail.

SFC W

And not only were they sent to jail, they were discharged with Bad Conduct Discharges. That means the only job they can get is performing sexual favors under overpasses for beer money. That's pretty powerful.

[Ken White]

Uboat - So you do not believe what GEN Taguba found regarding GEN Miller bringing in Gitmo tactics, where MPs were asked to essentially soften up detainees for interrogators as having anything to do with the resulting abuses?

decision to go into Iraq in the first place. As did the decision to ram airplanes into buildings. The failure to correctly react to the Embassy siezure in Tehran in 1979 had an effect also. So too did Sanchez well meant but stupid directive to the Intel fokks to "Get more intel!!!"

None of which has anything to do with the fact that a bunch of poorly trained Reserve MPs who almost certainly should not have had the job they had were assigned that job (whose fault was that?) went overboard and got stupid -- and all acknowledged at their trials that they essentially knew what they were doing was wrong (does that make it their fault?). You forgot to mention the senior NCOs and the Officers of that Battalion and Company who did NOT check on their people and allowed that to happen (Surely you don't want to let them slide?). Or former BG, now Colonel Karpinski who got dropped a grade for failure to supervise (ala Martha Stewart, this is a good thing...).

There's plenty of blame for many -- but the bottom line is those kids screwed up, got caught and most got punished. The system worked.

The good news is that both Sanchez and Miller were quietly retired. The Armed forces of the US, all of them, rarely punish active component Flag Officers for errors. I don't agree with that either but neither you nor I will get that changed -- thus I'd ask, what's your point?

Serious question.

[tequila]

Tequila, I do not have time to read that entire report but I did skim through it and I did not see any thing that said that what actually occured at Abu G was authorized or condoned by the command. Yes, they were supposed to "soften up" the detainees but even before this whole thing blew up there were guidlines as to what was and was not authorized.

As soon as you ask untrained MPs to "set the conditions" for interrogation, you are essentially asking for them to do a job beyond their training and expertise in an environment begging for abuse. The MPs testified that the detainees in the AG incident were specifically those for whom MI personnel asked for special treatment, and for whom special rules had been prescribed by MI personnel.

Too many of these incidents where MI personnel essentially ask unqualified junior soldiers to set the table for interrogations have occurred for this to be solely a "Bad Apple" phenomenon - this bright idea came from on high, specifically those who asked for looser rules at Gitmo which migrated to Bagram and around the world.

And not only were they sent to jail, they were discharged with Bad Conduct Discharges. That means the only job they can get is performing sexual favors under overpasses for beer money. That's pretty powerful.

I'm pretty sure they got dishonorable discharges - Big Chicken Dinners are handed out for things like assault and so on.

There's plenty of blame for many -- but the bottom line is those kids screwed up, got caught and most got punished. The system worked.

Disagree.

The good news is that both Sanchez and Miller were quietly retired. The Armed forces of the US, all of them, rarely punish active component Flag Officers for errors. I don't agree with that either but neither you nor I will get that changed -- thus I'd ask, what's your point?

That's the point. The system did not work when command responsibility no longer functioned. SECDEF Rumsfeld approved and pushed for more bareknuckle interrogation tactics. GEN Miller worked to loosen the rules at Gitmo then set them loose in Iraq - GEN Sanchez pushed this along. These men were entrusted by the U.S. with its honor and they chose the path of Hollywood tough-guy behavior. In doing so, they set the conditions for the abuse and unnecessary deaths to follow, not to mention handing the enemy an enormous IO victory. Yes, blame Karpinski and the various SNCOs who should have been doing their jobs, but bad SNCOs exist in all armies - that's why universal high standards for things like prisoner treatment should exist and be enforced, not kicked to the curb in the name of "taking the gloves off."

[Ken White]

say in what way it did not. Could you clarify that?

If you meant that the GOs not getting more than a rushed retirement was a miscarriage of justice, we can agree but your point is then fallacious because, as I said and you should know, that doesn't happen in the US. It should but it generally does not and that is historical fact. You and I are not going to change that so you're living in a dream world on that score.

Your last paragraph is essentially correct though your "Hollywood tough guy" comment is both telling and incorrect. It is also irrelevant. We can agree on what should not have happened, however we all have to live with what did and does happen -- mistakes are made in wars. Many have been made in this one, the whole interrogation effort is just one of them. Like many of the other mistakes, that one was rectified. You can disagree that the system worked but you'd be wrong.

It's also easy to take the moral high ground in hindsight and sitting here in CONUS, isn't it?