Iraq, 'Sinking Fast,' Is Ranked No. 2 on List of Unstable States

[Tom Odom]

You are right, of course. DOD always treated Haiti as if it were a slice of Africa in the Americas. All the army attaches were Africa FAOs. I wonder - do you know - if State did the same?

I believe that is the case, per Bill's response above. Also had to do with language training of course as French was an Africanist language

Tom

[Stan]

Merv,

Certainly Haiti ranks up there. But Africa is simply amazing when it comes to the comic-tragedy of Mugabe and Mugabe-like figures. Stan has a continuous decade of Zaire/Congo under his belt and fueled with a couple of beers can offer hours of stories. It gets to the point where you have to guard against making erroneous assumptions of incompetency. That was the case with certain of my SF guys when they came from Haiti and joined me in Rwanda where the RPA stood out by virtue of its efficiency.

But where Haiti still reigns supreme is duration of independent incompetence; two centuries is quite a record.

Best

Tom

Nichols said it best (and Tom has studied and lived with it longer than most care to even think about): "You can take the man out of WAWA, but you can't take WAWA out of the man."

The moment we forget this absurd and abysmal saying, we will be subjected to jungle rules...and just plain ol' screwed !

We began to imagine all sorts of pathetic and hopeful means of saving or restructuring a culture that has done just fine for decades, destroyed anything the French or Belg left behind, and will steal you blind while doing said.

I think the Haitians came over for short courses, but never graduated

[Stan]

I believe Ambassador Swing went straight from South Africa to Haiti in the early 90s. One man doesn't make a trend, but it's one data point.

The NCOs that replaced me both in Africa and Estonia came directly from Haiti (you got me there). Merely due to French language skills...in Estonia ?

The latter also served in Canada

I doubt State could pork up such an ideal marriage...You have to attend FSI French language training to screw things up this bad...aye ?

[Ski]

West Africa Wins Again

My dad has been doing business in West Africa for 30 years. He still goes to Nigeria twice a year, and says it hasn't changed since the 70's.

[John T. Fishel]

In Haiti, the mulato elite speak French. All Haitians, however, speak Creole.

When I was there, I did not identify any US soldiers, not even 3rd SFG guys, -other than Haitian born Americans - who spoke Creole. The 3rd Group guys were trying to pick it up, however. The ICITAP folk who were training the police - I knew their chief, Rick Lang, from Panama - were Spanish speakers. The RCMP were all French speakers (at least bi-lingual) and their may have been Creole speakers among them since Quebec has a large number of Haitian immigrants. But, then, the RCMP are Canadian, not American...

[Tom Odom]

John T

yep and that was still the case when my ex was there and i was planning to go in the early to mid 90s. I suspect it is still the same; no one really gets Creole, just French.

Tom

[Stan]

Hi John !
Most of our buds from 3rd were in Sub-Sahara along with CA back then. Some of the 5th studied Creole in my days (1984), and a few made it to Zäire (now talk about funny to listen to...even the Africans didn't know what to think).

Bi-lingual you say ? I can't even imagine (after speaking Belgian French for 10 years) how a Québécois could get along in Haiti, or for that matter, a Haitian in Quebec.

Regards, Stan

In Haiti, the mulato elite speak French. All Haitians, however, speak Creole.

When I was there, I did not identify any US soldiers, not even 3rd SFG guys, -other than Haitian born Americans - who spoke Creole. The 3rd Group guys were trying to pick it up, however. The ICITAP folk who were training the police - I knew their chief, Rick Lang, from Panama - were Spanish speakers. The RCMP were all French speakers (at least bi-lingual) and their may have been Creole speakers among them since Quebec has a large number of Haitian immigrants. But, then, the RCMP are Canadian, not American...

[Tacitus]

But where Haiti still reigns supreme is duration of independent incompetence; two centuries is quite a record.
Tom

Gentlemen,
So what is unique to Haiti, which would explain this kind of record of futility? All I can think of is voodoo.

I know nothing about voodoo, other than some vauge notions of zombies, voodoo dolls, and using it to control people. I've seen "Live and Let Die", that James Bond flick.

Serious question for you old Hatian hands out there. We often debate on here whether there is something inherent in Islam causing the problems in Muslim countries. Well, is there something to voodoo that contributes to the misery in Haiti?

They share the island of Hispanola with The Dominican Republic, which looks like Switzerland in comparison. I don't think they practice voodoo there, either.

[Firestaller]

As for Iraq. Picture the great State of California suffering the same daily routine. Liberals and Conservatives blowing each other up. Tortured bodies found everyday and sent to the morgue. Illegal immigrants kidnapping citizens and demanding ransom. Police being attacked and/or executed. The list goes on...

But it isn't happening in California because we have a better system. They have an old archaic system that is difficult for even the most learned on the culture to understand. Iraq is now the, "FIGHT CLUB!", capitol of the world. I wonder if we take my governor's advice and completely leave Iraq. Would Iraq become the #1 worst place in the world or would it move up in the rankings. All I know is we opened up a big can of worms. I hope Washington knows what they are doing. No pun intended.

Iraq, unlike California, has 100 billion + barrels of oil up for grabs.


What's going on in Iraq is more like Mad Max where groups/gangs have formed to get a peice of the black gold while the majority of the population suffers.

[John T. Fishel]

Hi Tacitus--

Vodun ( the correct term for voodoo) is the religion of the masses in Haiti, It is a sycretism of Catholocism with sub-Saharan African animism. It is not, however, unique to Haiti but is common in may areas of the world where there were large numbers of African slaves. Among those areas are Brazil - where it is called Condomble - Cuba - where it is known as Santeria - and the American South around Charleston and New Orleans.

So, I don't think that one can make a causal argument for Vodun expliaining Haiti's culture of predation and its self-destructiveness. At most, one might suggest a possible contributory role in combination with many other variables.

Cheers

JohnT

[Stan]

Hi Tacitus--

Vodun ( the correct term for voodoo) is the religion of the masses in Haiti, It is a sycretism of Catholocism with sub-Saharan African animism. It is not, however, unique to Haiti but is common in may areas of the world where there were large numbers of African slaves. Among those areas are Brazil - where it is called Condomble - Cuba - where it is known as Santeria - and the American South around Charleston and New Orleans.

So, I don't think that one can make a causal argument for Vodun expliaining Haiti's culture of predation and its self-destructiveness. At most, one might suggest a possible contributory role in combination with many other variables.

Cheers

JohnT

Hi John !
A good point, but I rarely saw Sub-Saharans performing any rituals (thank God). I did serve with Tom, does that count ?

We do however happen to have a distinguished resident member that performs this kind of stuff (in Canada).

I will summon him ASAP

[marct]

Hi Folks,

I guess Stan's summoning spell worked ..

Vodun ( the correct term for voodoo) is the religion of the masses in Haiti, It is a sycretism of Catholocism with sub-Saharan African animism. It is not, however, unique to Haiti but is common in may areas of the world where there were large numbers of African slaves. Among those areas are Brazil - where it is called Condomble - Cuba - where it is known as Santeria - and the American South around Charleston and New Orleans.

John's got it as far as Vodoun is concerned (although "animism" is somewhat misleading; the original forms are closer to a combination of ancestor worship and "classical" paganism rather than animism). Most of these syncretic religions do share certain commonalities amongst deities, spirits (e.g. the Orishas and the "riders"), and ritual formats. There are fairly large communities in most major North American cities as well (including Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa).

What is fairly unique to Haiti and the New Orleans area (part of the same culture area originally) is the dualistic form that shows up. For several centuries, there as been a fairly heavy split between "factions" within Vodoun; probably the best know is the activity of the Duvaliers and the Tontons Macoute who used one of these factions to establish a reign of terror.

[quote=John T. Fishel;19173]So, I don't think that one can make a causal argument for Vodun expliaining Haiti's culture of predation and its self-destructiveness. At most, one might suggest a possible contributory role in combination with many other variables.[/quote

I've got to agree with John, here. My own gut guess is that the major factor in Haiti's instability is that it started as a slave revolt state with a heavy emphasis on conflict. Certainly its invasion of the Dominican Republic in the 1820's contributed to that vector. Vodoun was used during the occupation as a "weapon" against the Dominicans, and it is still in use today in the DR amongst the Haitian community there (~2 million people or 25% of the population).

We do however happen to have a distinguished resident member that performs this kind of stuff (in Canada).

I will summon him ASAP

Hi Stan,

"performs"? Nah, that's not my style at all . I've only been to a couple of them and I know more people who are involved in Santeria than in Vodoun .

Marc

[Tacitus]

Hi Tacitus--

Vodun ( the correct term for voodoo) is the religion of the masses in Haiti, It is a sycretism of Catholocism with sub-Saharan African animism. It is not, however, unique to Haiti but is common in may areas of the world where there were large numbers of African slaves. Among those areas are Brazil - where it is called Condomble - Cuba - where it is known as Santeria - and the American South around Charleston and New Orleans.

So, I don't think that one can make a causal argument for Vodun expliaining Haiti's culture of predation and its self-destructiveness. At most, one might suggest a possible contributory role in combination with many other variables.

Cheers

JohnT

Greetings JohnT,
Thanks for the background on Vodun. I don't claim any insight into voodoo or Haiti. Just wondering what is unique there. Maybe the voodoo is a symptom, not a cause, of the problem?

Religion is a fascinating subject. For example, Rastafarians accept that Haile Selassie I, the former Emperor of Ethiopia, was God incarnate. To a non-Rasta that just sounds bizarre. More broadly, any religion not your own seems a fraud perpretrated on a gullible public. People ask, "How can they not see through that sort of nonsense?" The idea that your own religion seems just as crazy to a man with different one does not seem to occur in the minds of men.

[marct]

Hi Tacitus,

Religion is a fascinating subject. For example, Rastafarians accept that Haile Selassie I, the former Emperor of Ethiopia, was God incarnate. To a non-Rasta that just sounds bizarre. More broadly, any religion not your own seems a fraud perpretrated on a gullible public. People ask, "How can they not see through that sort of nonsense?" The idea that your own religion seems just as crazy to a man with different one does not seem to occur in the minds of men.

One of the interesting things, for me at any rate, has been how religious systems can be used to condition perceptions of reality. From my own studies, it is readily apparent that almost any religious system can be used to either reinforce or destabilize any other social system. There are, however, some interesting clues that can be picked up as to the particular aims - i.e. is the system focused on making the individual or the group more or less stable? is the system aimed at limiting or expanding personal growth? is the system in "balance" with lived reality (i,e, does it provide an explanatory model that actually works for the believer)? This is, however, getting into another area...

Marc