Weapns MTX in Iraq

[carl]

Gentleman:

I request some information from you all.

Here in country the company I am working for a company that issues weapons to the crews when we go out and fly. We turn them in at the end of the flight. They are common weapons assigned to all and seemingly maintained by none. The lack of cleaning (read none) I can take care of I think, but I need advice with some other things. When I was an officer, I was able to zero and maintain my own weapons (AR-15, Glock 31 and 12 ga.) in my environment but here, I could use some help.

My questions are:

1. What is the best way to set up the sights on an M-4 when the weapons will be used by a large group at random and the group is always changing? (I would like to set it up to use the large apeture)

2. How much or little should I lube the M-4? In the past I would put a coat of Break Free on moving parts then wipe it off, leaving a very thin coat. I would put a heavier coat on the bolt, inside the bolt carrier and the lugs. Will that work here?

3. In LE we loaded the 30 round mags to 28 and the 20 round mags to 18. Does that still hold?

4. All the mags, pistol and M-4, were loaded months ago and haven't been touched since. Should I load, unload them, how often etc? (the pistols are Sig 228s by the way).

Anything else you can suggest would be most helpful and appreciated.

[Stan]

Hey Carl !
Sorry to hear that your organization doesn't take things very seriously over there. The Estonian units have had the same problems for 9 rotations now: weapons for 6 to 7 people at any given time.

We decided as far back as 2002, to merely "Establish Mechanical Zero" for all M-4 users. Rear sight (Rotate and align the windage indicator (peep sight to center) and Front sight, rotate the sight post up or down until the base of the front sight post is flush with the top of the sight post well.

What this does is establish "zero" starting at 25 meters, and will be set up to about 300 meters AKA - battlesight zero. In plain old GI speak, this means that all your average shots will be within a 9 inch circle at ranges from 25 to about 300 meters.

It's then up to each individual to test fire several 3-round groups and see just how bad he's off target (assuming that interests him).

It's that, or you will have to (each and every morning) adjust your weapon only to have it readjusted the following day by another.

That's OK if you have the time to do so.

You best keep the M-4 clean, or the sight problems will be your least.

Good luck, God Speed and Regards, Stan

[slapout9]

Carl, check in see if it is OK to have the last 2 rounds in your magazine as tracers. Gives a visual clue that you are about to change mags.
The magazines that have been loaded for months absolutely need to be unloaded and checked. How often? every time you clean your weapon you should do your mags, at least that is what I was taught. How often? Hard question, depends on use and your environment I would say.

Big warning some years ago the FBI issued an alert that Break Free could seep into individual bullets and contaminate the powder. It takes a while to do this but I would not want to chance it. Might be best to check with the manufacturer as this problem may have been fixed.

[Tom Odom]

Carl, check in see if it is OK to have the last 2 rounds in your magazine as tracers. Gives a visual clue that you are about to change mags.
The magazines that have been loaded for months absolutely need to be unloaded and checked. How often? every time you clean your weapon you should do your mags, at least that is what I was taught. How often? Hard question, depends on use and your environment I would say.

Big warning some years ago the FBI issued an alert that Break Free could seep into individual bullets and contaminate the powder. It takes a while to do this but I would not want to chance it. Might be best to check with the manufacturer as this problem may have been fixed.

Slap

I have heard the same thing on WD40 which often gets used as lube on weapons rather than a proper weapons lubricant. As for magazine rotation, I just had a converstaion with our Natick representative here in my office on this issue. He said they did a study about fife years ago that essentially said leaving mags loaded is a way to guarantee feed issues. The study keyed on the springs in that a compressed spring is a spring in constant use; it must be allowed to decompress or it fails after time. I have asked the Natick guy for the study; if not classified or sensitive I will post part or all.

Tom

[Stan]

Hey Slapout,
Used to be that oil and primers didn't get along too well for long.

We kept the mags clean and dry, and checked for corrosion. But ever so light on the oil in there, just enough to keep things moving freely.

Carl, check in see if it is OK to have the last 2 rounds in your magazine as tracers. Gives a visual clue that you are about to change mags.
The magazines that have been loaded for months absolutely need to be unloaded and checked. How often? every time you clean your weapon you should do your mags, at least that is what I was taught. How often? Hard question, depends on use and your environment I would say.

Big warning some years ago the FBI issued an alert that Break Free could seep into individual bullets and contaminate the powder. It takes a while to do this but I would not want to chance it. Might be best to check with the manufacturer as this problem may have been fixed.

[sgmgrumpy]

Carl,

I hate to even ask, since I probably can read your posts but, have any of those people who are carrying those weapons even been to the range for familiarization or qualification

After you get the maint up I would definetely be kicking someone in the 4th point of contact and getting people to range.

Send me a PM. I can send you some additional info if you like.

[Rob Thornton]

Carl, allot of malfunctions can be traced back to bad mags. Bad springs, bent mouths, etc. Make sure you invest in some new mags - read a couple of reports and see which ones you like best for your $$$. Once you have your new mags, inspect them often.

As for lubricants, well there are different thoughts depending on where you will be operating, but I never had any prblems with CLP - I have heard other say that down south where its arid and dusty that graphite powder works well - but I never used it.

As for sights, if you are going with straight irons, the traditional zero is still the best. If you are going to invest in optics - I preferred the ACOG 4x32 over the Aim Point - just me - but I liked that I could use optics to look around a bit. I'm also not a big fan of little knobs and batteries. Either way - if you invest in optics - invest in back up irons that mount right behind (between your eye and the scope) on the rail system - and zero it as well.

Whatever you go with -- shoot it allot, under allot of different conditions, with gear on and off. First get a good zero, then Look up Reflexive fire drills, then do some shooting between 50 and 150 meters. Shoot strong side and weak side. There are plenty of courses these days on combat shooting.

Clean after shooting and perform regular maint. on the weapons. Inspect your ammo when loading and unloading.

I'd also say invest in a good "hands free" 3 point sling that already comes put together. If you are always going to be wearing armor, then you mght consider a snap link set up above your shooting soldier, with a "wolf's tail" and "fastek" connector. That is what I finally went to because it did not get caught up on my equip.

Last point - look at how you are going to carry your ammo. I mention it only because it sounds like some of your guys might not have carried an M4 before. I used a readi-mag set up on the side with the rest of my magazines on my vest.

[Stan]

Carl,
Something out of the Armstrong Institute regarding chambered rounds:

Now that you mentioned having SigArms for a sidearm, I wanted to point out something that was recently discovered with LEs using Sig and Glock 9mm weapons.

In the article, LEs typically chambered the same round in the morning, and unloaded the same in the evening, only to reload the same round on the next duty day. What that tends to do to the round is constantly slam the bullet home when the slide goes forward, effectively changing the headspace. The LE in question recently had a catastrophic failure that Sig nor Glock will guarantee as a weapon's failure. The round exploded inside the chamber sending half the slide and some of the bullet down range, but the LE escaped unhurt.

Practice 'top round' rotation and mark them so that you know just how many times the round has been chambered.

This assumes you're chambering a round with the start of your duty day, and clearing the weapon at the end.

If you folks are sharing weapons, this may be significant as each person ends up chambering and clearing a round each day.

If anyone is interested in the article, please send me a PM.

Regards, Stan

[Stan]

3. In LE we loaded the 30 round mags to 28 and the 20 round mags to 18. Does that still hold?

4. All the mags, pistol and M-4, were loaded months ago and haven't been touched since. Should I load, unload them, how often etc? (the pistols are Sig 228s by the way).

Carl,
It's too hard to determine what the various manufactures dictate regarding magazine loads. For that matter, we have no real idea who makes their magazines, springs, etc.

What I was taught at Bragg's Anti-Terrorism shooting course (1984), was just what you heard while working as an LE., one or two less rounds from the magazine's max cap. But the instructor also followed with "On the other hand, if ammunition quantity is paramount (like where you folks are going), that one extra round may end up saving your skin."

I like Slapout's idea using tracers to give you a visual of 'out of ammo', but the Army tends to want every 3rd round to be a tracer. So, while you've got all those M4 mags unloaded and cleaned up, check for tracer rounds.

Since the day I was big enough to fire the old man's 1911 and 30.06, I have frequently unloaded my mags and cleaned them up. I often load my hi-capacity mags with one round less. Magazine PM is very important, and one cannot adequately clean a fully-loaded magazine. Eventually, all the magazine rotations in the world will still require the magazines to be disassembled, cleaned and the previous 'top round' rotated.

Regards, Stan

[120mm]

Slap

I have heard the same thing on WD40 which often gets used as lube on weapons rather than a proper weapons lubricant. As for magazine rotation, I just had a converstaion with our Natick representative here in my office on this issue. He said they did a study about fife years ago that essentially said leaving mags loaded is a way to guarantee feed issues. The study keyed on the springs in that a compressed spring is a spring in constant use; it must be allowed to decompress or it fails after time. I have asked the Natick guy for the study; if not classified or sensitive I will post part or all.

Tom

The compressed spring thing is not supported by any science that I'm aware of. The only thing that can kill a spring is dirt, corrosion, constant loading and unloading, or overextension.

It IS a part of "Old Sergeant Lore" however, and if "exercizing" springs makes the individual soldier feel better about their individual weapons, good on them. As long as that soldier doesn't try to stretch the spring to make it stronger, (which will absolutely destroy the spring, and oh yeah, I've seen it done...) they can't really hurt it.

It is much, much more important to keep mags clean, and cleaning the mags regularly will exercize the spring anyway, as you have to unload the mag to clean it properly.

There were a bunch of bad M9 mags at the beginning of the war; you shouldn't have any trouble with that.

On the topic of your M4s: The folks who brought you the M16A2/M4 upgrade did a shootoff in the late 1980s, where they determined that the M16A2/M4 package was, indeed, more reliable than the AK and M14 in fine dirt and dust conditions, provided that the following actions were taken. 1. The rifle had a "shoot-through" muzzle cap affixed. 2. The dust cover was always kept closed when not actually firing the weapon. and 3. There was a magazine inserted, or at least a plug in the magazine well. 4. The weapon was operated with the externals dry, and the internals fairly wet, lubrication-wise.

I just found this post on AR15.com by Dave Lutz, Lt Col USMC (ret), who was the project manager for the M16E1:

"The Blowing Sand & Dust testing we did was "by the book" per Aberdeen Proving Ground's TOPs (test operation procedures). This is bascially a big plywood box with a horizonal weapons rack and a big funnel in the lid. As compressed air is injected from the sides, a specific combination mixture of different partical sizes and silicon dust are poured through the funnel every minute. The silicon dust is the most critical element.
We stopped and fired every 5 minutes, up to a total of 20 minutes without any malfunctions as long a "normal" ammounts of CLP were used to lube the internal parts. We did have stopages when the weapon was only lightly lubed or dry--which debunked what the Desert TM stated at the time which was more applicable to other weapons with "open" receiver designs like the M60 and .50 Cal. It did not seem worth the effort to go more than 20 minutes as this mixture does not get any worse after 10 minutes.
Weapons (Ak-47, M16A1, M16A1E1's) were loaded with a round in the chamber, full magazine inserted and dust cover closed. Also used a GI plastic muzzle cap.
The AK did ok as well, but when we repeated the test with the safety's on Full-Auto, the AK was unable to fire the first or any other rounds. That was because the AK's Safety/Selector is also its breeech area's dust cover. So with it open/ready to fire, as if walking point, about four table spoons worth of this test medium had deposited itself in the trigger mech behind the closed bolt and blocked the hammer from striking the firing pin, even after trying to shake out the excess.
So what we learned here was keep the insides lubed normally, and use"active protective measures" such as keeping even an empty mag in place, bolt closed, etc. Problem being in rear areas trooops are usually forbidden to do this, so over time this fine dust builds up.

The test you described sounds fine, and is obviously more real world, but I think the results would be the same. You keep the weapon clean & lubed, a take active protective measures and it will fire for you every time. Need to keep spare magazines protected as well. Also, every other day unload, clean them, wipe ammo dry, and reload. This was something I had my Platoon do in Viet-Nam which all but eliminated M16 stopages."

[Tom Odom]

The compressed spring thing is not supported by any science that I'm aware of. The only thing that can kill a spring is dirt, corrosion, constant loading and unloading, or overextension.

I will have to disagree when I just talked to the Natick science rep here. Again constant compression of a spring is constant use, according to his sources. If I can get the report he cited I will send it to you.

In any case, we both agree that rotation of magazines is important, do we not?

Tom

[slapout9]

I will have to disagree when I just talked to the Natick science rep here. Again constant compression of a spring is constant use, according to his sources. If I can get the report he cited I will send it to you.

In any case, we both agree that rotation of magazines is important, do we not?

Tom

Tom I think the Natick guy is right. Metal under compression or tension causes fatigue which can cause a failure. I also think you are correct about the WD40, anything that qualifies as a penetrating lubricant can cause a problem.

[sgmgrumpy]

Accession Number:
AD0639322


Citation Status:
ACTIVE

Title:
INORGANIC COATINGS FOR SPRING APPLICATIONS.

Fields and Groups :
110300 - COATINGS, COLORANTS AND FINISHES
130800 - MFG & INDUSTRIAL ENG & CONTROL OF PRODUCT SYS
190600 - GUNS


Corporate Author:
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MASS

Personal Author(s):
LARiviere,A. H.
Pributsky,G.


Report Date:
30 JUN 1966

Media Count:
53 Pages(s)

Organization Type:
A - ARMY

Report Number(s):
SA-TR18-1094 (SATR181094)

DescriptiveNote:
Technical rept.

Project Number(s):
DA-M1-3-23043 (DAM1323043)

Descriptors:
*SMALL ARMS, COATINGS, SPRINGS, FATIGUE(MECHANICS), LIFE EXPECTANCY(SERVICE LIFE), INORGANIC COMPOUNDS, HYDROGEN EMBRITTLEMENT, ABRASIVE BLASTING, COLD WORKING, HELICAL SPRINGS, SURFACES.ZSMALL ARMS, COATINGS, SPRINGS, FATIGUE(MECHANICS), LIFE EXPECTANCY(SERVICE LIFE), INORGANIC COMPOUNDS, HYDROGEN EMBRITTLEMENT, ABRASIVE BLASTING, COLD WORKING, HELICAL SPRINGS, SURFACES.Z

Abstract:
Inorganic coatings and surface pretreatments (such as vaporblast, gritblast, and shot-peening processes) were investigated and evaluated to determine their effect on fatigue life of experimental helical springs used in small arms weapons systems. Surface pretreatment improves fatigue life of both coated and noncoated springs. The use of surface pretreatment such as shot-peening eliminates the necessity of baking to minimize hydrogen embrittlement effects. The shot-peening process not only provided the greatest improvement in fatigue life but also minimized the dydrogen embrittlement from the various coating processes. Test procedure is described and results discussed. (Author)

Distribution Limitation(s):
01 - APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE


Source Code:
331450

Document Location:
DTIC AND NTIS

Geopolitical Code:
2502

Citation Updated:
14 OCT 2005

http://stinet.dtic.mil/index.html

A study was made to evaluate the effects of various pretreatment processes and long-term storage on the magazine spring for the M14, 7.62mm, rifle. The various pretreatment processes considered in the study were: (1) stress-relieving only, (2) stress-relieving and cold-set, (3) stress-relieving and heat-set, and (4) heat-set only. The storage tests involved periods from 1 to 5 years and consisted of hot, cold, and normal temperature conditions. Test procedures are described and results discussed. (Author)

http://stinet.dtic.mil/stinet/jsp/do...28s%29&MC=&PE=

[Stan]

I will have to disagree when I just talked to the Natick science rep here. Again constant compression of a spring is constant use, according to his sources. If I can get the report he cited I will send it to you.

In any case, we both agree that rotation of magazines is important, do we not?

Tom

Because we had already debated this issue for two days via email, I started to dig.

Scientifically, 120 is right when referring to elastic and plastic deformation (with repeated cycles, the spring incurs cumulative damage and will eventually break, or take a set from metal fatigue. There's however no difference whether the magazine is emptied by hand or by the action -- either way it's a cycle of stressing and un-stressing, and spring fatigue life is very sensitive to its maximum stress.).

Then I wrote Wilson Combat (where my 1911 .45 and 8-round stainless mags came from). Customer Service responded that regular maintenance and unloading their mags is a good idea, but would not commit to spring life. They did refer me to this site though: Magazine spring madness: 'creep' to your 'elastic limit' to un-earth the urban legend of 'spring-set'

The shooting sports are full of some of the most knowledgeable and capable people you'll meet anywhere. I've been impressed consistently with the abilities of those I meet at the range to diagnose and fix a gun problem with as little as some spray lube and a cotton swab. However, sometimes a myth will creep into the folklore.

The magazine spring myth has been around for many years and is growing in popularity. It goes something like this: "You should unload your magazines when they're not in use or the spring will weaken causing failures to feed." This has gone as far as shooting competitors actually unloading their magazines between stages to extend the life of their springs. A variant of this myth is: "You should never load a magazine to capacity and should always leave it one round short." What if you need that round some day?

To put this one to rest, you have to understand creep. Creep is the slow flow of a non-ferric metal like copper, brass and lead under force. At temperatures outside of a furnace, steel doesn't have any appreciable creep. Under most conditions, steel flexes and then returns to its original shape. When pushed past its elastic limit, steel will bend and not return to its original shape. All designers of well-made magazines make sure the spring never approaches the elastic limit when the magazine is fully loaded. Honest. This means the spring will not weaken when the magazine is fully loaded -- not even over an extended time. Like 50 years. American Handgunner recently ran a story about a magazine full of .45 ACP that had been sitting since WWII and it ran just fine on the first try. So there you go.

Now that the light of truth is leaking out, lets talk about what is causing failures to feed. The only way to weaken a magazine spring is to flex it past its normal range (elastic limit). If this is happening, somebody is trying to overload a magazine or has "adjusted" it by bending the spring. Both of these could cause feed failures. (and this one's for 120 per his last email !) Shame on you if you're a spring bender.

[slapout9]

Stan, my source is a structural engineer that is building an addition to our hospital. My original highlighted statement came from him and my 30 second engineering class. I then went back and explained the whole problem to him. His response was that springs when first compressed "do" shrink a little. This is called the "spring set" after that, fatigue and final failure are caused by reasons you listed above and not from extended compression. Because of the initial spring set may be unknown to the shooter it could cause a failure to feed but there are a lot of variables to figure in. My engineer believes that spring set and manufacturer quality determine if you should load or not load the magazine to full capacity. Any reputable manufacturer would be fine to load to full capacity, if there is any doubt short load it by one round until you can get a better magazine.

[Stan]

Stan, my source is a structural engineer that is building an addition to our hospital. My original highlighted statement came from him and my 30 second engineering class. I then went back and explained the whole problem to him. His response was that springs when first compressed "do" shrink a little. This is called the "spring set" after that, fatigue and final failure are caused by reasons you listed above and not from extended compression. Because of the initial spring set may be unknown to the shooter it could cause a failure to feed but there are a lot of variables to figure in. My engineer believes that spring set and manufacturer quality determine if you should load or not load the magazine to full capacity. Any reputable manufacturer would be fine to load to full capacity, if there is any doubt short load it by one round until you can get a better magazine.

Thanks, Slapout.
I don't really believe this Bravo Sierra too much. As I posted earlier, since childhood I've relaxed my mag's springs and cleaned them.
Wilson's .45 mags cost 35 bucks each, and the 7 or 8 that I have are from 1987.

No junk for this dude

Still relax the springs and clean the mags after each and every range outing.

[120mm]

And, in the end, regarding "spring set" and whether leaving mags loaded is bad for the spring or not shouldn't matter, as you have to unload the mag anyway, to do proper magazine maintenance.

What I'm still geeking about is how the M16 is actually MORE reliable than the AK or M14 in dust and sand, provided you treat it right. (Because with the dust cover closed, mag inserted and a muzzle cap on, it is functionally a sealed system.) And how the command policy of carrying without an inserted magazine as well as ignoring "shoot thru" muzzle caps contributes to reliability problems.

[carl]

Thank you all for the information. I didn't know most of it. Especially the fact that the M-4 can be more reliable than an AK in some conditions.

Now I have to see if we can get some muzzle caps and something other than a magazine to place in the magazine well. Range time too, few of the flight crews have fired the weapon on burst.

The thing that amazes me about all this is how people don't really seem to believe there is a war on, it can happen to them and they will try to kill you.

[arty8]

I'm a squad leader in Iraq and here's what I learned in the past 10 months. Your choice of lube is easy--As of Dec 06, per TACOM, the only authorized small arms lube in Iraq is CLP. Although I've used just about everything else, including MILTECH, CLP is the gold standard and readily available.

Advice on how much lube for the M4's is available. In the manual. You really don't have to dump a gallon of CLP into the action to get it to work. For magazines, take them apart monthly and clean, the dirt really does get everywhere. Letting the springs rest is poppycock. I started the war with new mags and except for cleaning, kept them loaded the entire tour so far. I always load 30 rounds in my mags.

Muzzle caps keep crud out of the bore and are invaluable. Keep weapons cleaning supplies and break free by the arms room and make the crews wipe them down before they turn them in. My soldiers don't sleep until the crew served and personal weapons are clean after a patrol.

[Stan]

Hi 120 !
In response to your e-mails and posts - Overall I agree with the findings and reliability of the M16 (vs the AK) from SGM Grumpy.

I was stationed at White Sands, and a long time ago. Even then, we kept the dust cover closed and the RED hat on the flash suppressor (or shoot through cap..whatever). I was also stationed at Aberdeen and Edgewood proving grounds. Anything you can imagine being performed with weapons is done there.

Never a problem, even with the magazines. My preventative maintenance routine stems from childhood, shooting ranges, and of course the Army.

Is it just good Ju Ju or poppycock ? Who knows.
What I do know is, in 23 years of service I have never experienced problems with my M16s.

The Chinese AKs we could "obtain" in Zaire were just friggin junk. Even the ammo - it would fragment against a standard U.S. windshield barely leaving a scratch. For a .30 caliber round, not all that great.

In conclusion, I agree with your recent e-mail appraisal:

I think it is a very elegant solution as a combat rifle, all myths aside.

Regards, Stan

And, in the end, regarding "spring set" and whether leaving mags loaded is bad for the spring or not shouldn't matter, as you have to unload the mag anyway, to do proper magazine maintenance.

What I'm still geeking about is how the M16 is actually MORE reliable than the AK or M14 in dust and sand, provided you treat it right. (Because with the dust cover closed, mag inserted and a muzzle cap on, it is functionally a sealed system.) And how the command policy of carrying without an inserted magazine as well as ignoring "shoot thru" muzzle caps contributes to reliability problems.