Is Europe Waking Up?

[AdmiralAdama]

Remarkable article in the leftist Guardian about the challenge posed by Islam. Remarkable for its forthrightness and its placement in such a left-wing, anti-American publication.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comme...104875,00.html

The space in which to argue that Islam is an essentially benign religion seems to narrow with every passing day..Those who think that what we are observing is solely a blowback against Western foreign policy, the invasion of Iraq and Israeli's treatment of Palestinians vastly underestimate the profundity of what is happening - or the possibility of changing it by changes to foreign policy. The tensions between Islam, the British and the West have much deeper roots.

Can Islamic theology and culture compete with the march of globalisation, Western values and their self-evident superiority in delivering a prosperity that Islam cannot match? The West provokes Islam not by doing anything, although what it does is hardly helpful; it provokes at least some strands of Islamic thought simply by being.

[skiguy]

Nor should the West too readily accept at face value demands to accept Islamic dress codes, protocols over food

So should we also not accept a Catholic priest's robe or a Jews yarmuckle(sp) or their eating of Kosher foods?
Are Muslims really demanding these things, or is it the West demanding they stop?

The invocations of the Koran and Allah to justify suicide and death may sound like throwbacks; in fact they are utterly contemporary

There's a recent (unfortunately locked) discussion on this board about what the Qur'an really says about that.
And what about the invocations of Surah 60:8? Why is this verse ignored by the Western armchair warmongers?

Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

I think much of the problem with the West is misunderstanding Islam. Hey, I sort of get angry too when unbelievers take the Bible out of context and use certain verses to say Christians are violent.

JMHO, I've been very careful to try to not take Qur'anic verses out of context to fit my beliefs of Islam. Glen Beck, Quinn & Rose and many others are doing that, and they are wrong. They'll take ONE verse and use that as their "evidence" that Islam is evil and out to destroy us. (when in all reality all they're doing is inciting hatred and racsism towards Muslims) I highly suspect Al Qaeda and theTaliban are doing exacly the same thing to justify their actions.

[AdmiralAdama]

Is the problem that the West is "misundersanding" Islam? It seems that the author is claiming that the West is indeed misunderstanding Islam -- by a craven appeasement of more and more demands. It recommends Western self-confidence and firmness. Thankfully, we are beginning to see a bit of waking up in Europe -- Sarkozy's election was an important moment in this trend, IMHO.

Here's Walid Phares -- Middle East Scholar from Lebanon -- on the history of Jihad and the strategic imperative to reckon with it --

Indeed, few commentators can challenge the fact that since the 7th century AD/CE, and for more than a millennia, Caliphs of the Umeyad, Abbasids, Mameluk, Ottomans and other dynasties, as well as their Walis (Governors) have waged holy wars, military campaigns, signed treaties, broken conventions, and conducted state affairs, based on the concept of Jihad. The latter injunction was a theologically-grounded, but politically practiced set of marching orders to attack, defend, invade or conquer for the sake of the Caliphate....

This is how you should prepare the nation to face future Jihadism, not by avoiding a national debate on the real issue under the pretext that Jihadism is some sort of theological matter. Precisely, the enemy wants you to believe that Jihadism (the enemy's profound nature) is just a matter of academic and theological debate. It would be the equivalent of having the propagandists of the IIIrd Reich convincing the Allies, that Nazism is a cultural issue. The West cannot avoid future Jihad unless it rises to a level of an advanced understanding of the enemy's ideology and tactics.

Jihad has a long history. It is not a matter of "taking quotes out of context". Do you believe that there is a doctrine known as Jihad in Islam?

[skiguy]

Do you believe that there is a doctrine known as Jihad in Islam?

Of course I do. But what's the definition? Is it what Daniel Pipes and OBL say...offensive, pre-emptive, world domination, make everyone believe or die?

Or is it what many Muslim scholars say...an individual or collective spiritual and moral struggle? (by the way, Pipes and other "experts" say those scholars are being deceptive and are lying about the definition).

Looking at this simplistically. After I get my degree, go there, and start working with Middle Easterners, wouldn't it be very detrimental to the goal we are all trying to acheive (as well as my sanity) if my attitude is "OK, I think you Muslims and all of Islam is evil because you are all hellbent on violent world domination, but let's cooperate and work together anyway"

Perhaps it's just my lack of knowledge or experience, but I just really don't see how Pipes, Beck, et.al. are helping the cause by saying the stuff they do.

With all due respect, sir, I do think you have a very one-sided view of Islam.

[goesh]

It's not an even playing field when at the economic, religious, social and political level women in the Islamic world are not accorded equal status with men. The nuance and complications this fact brings to bear in geopolitical relationships is not readily overcome with an open, accepting mind. I wish it were that simple yet I do see some winds of change blowing that bodes well for the optimist. In Saudi Arabia for instance, the religious police and their authority is being challenged more and more by the citizens who on the whole are quite religiously conservative. The internet is giving people the world over insight into each other never before had. On the other hand, the row over Salman Rushdie being knighted is escalating with Iran taking a strong lead. After all, a death fatwa/contract was put out on him by Iran so I suppose it is only fitting they claim the most egregious offense by a nation state over someone in England exercising the right of free speech. Given all the press and official responses coming from the Islamic world in response to Sir Rushdie, the almost total absence of Public condemnation from the Islamic world over the killing of Muslims by Muslims in Iraq must be regarded with due caution. I hope for the better and see postivie change brewing and occuring in the Islamic world, and ours, yet I don't shy away from a potential clash of civilizations which from many practical view points is already occuring.

[AdmiralAdama]

Of course I do. But what's the definition? Is it what Daniel Pipes and OBL say...offensive, pre-emptive, world domination, make everyone believe or die?

No, the Koran quite clearly offers infidels three different options -- convert, die, or pay the jizyah and "feel themselves dominated"

Or is it what many Muslim scholars say...an individual or collective spiritual and moral struggle? (by the way, Pipes and other "experts" say those scholars are being deceptive and are lying about the definition).

I'm not sure where you get the information that scholars say that Jihad is a "spiritual and moral struggle". Here's is a piece on the history of Jihad for the last 1300 years. It includes the Caliph practicing the precepts of Jihad:

Summon the people to God; those who respond to your call, accept it from them, but those who refuse must pay the poll tax out of humiliation and lowliness. (Koran 9:29) If they refuse this, it is the sword without leniency. Fear God with regard to what you have been entrusted.

if my attitude is "OK, I think you Muslims and all of Islam is evil because you are all hellbent on violent world domination, but let's cooperate and work together anyway"

I do not believe that Muslims and all of Islam is "evil". That is silly.

I do believe, however, in the importance of understanding the strategic intentions of our enemy, and I believe that we must look at the history and practice of Jihad to do that.

[skiguy]

Devour the nations the lord your god delivers over to you. Show them no pity

You must completely destroy them; you shall make no peace treaties with them, and show no mercy to them

Utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling baby

They pursued them and all of them to the very last had fallen by the edge of the sword

Put the inhabitants to the slaughter without giving any quarter and burn their town down

They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it— men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys

Are these verses from the Qur'am or the Bible?

Admiral, I completely agree with you that we have to look at their doctine to defeat them, but I also think we have to look at how (if possible) we can change attitude. Empowering the moderate Muslims may very well be the answer. Demonizing Islam isn't, because that could offend and turn away the moderate Muslims as well.

PLEASE don't take this personally, but I think having the attitude you show is the wrong approach. I don't think it could work. On the other hand, my tendency to have an overly optimistic attitude that they'll change and the moderates will take over and everything will be fine isn't correct either.