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  1. #1
    Council Member Dominique R. Poirier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Thornton View Post
    Dominique,
    (.....) please don't expect that we will simply drop a subject we are interested in, unless you offer a compelling counter-theory to explain the topic at hand - in which case the initial subject served its purpose.
    Rob,
    I apologize once more for my way of expressing my opinion about this subject. Also, in an afterthought, I considered that it was worthwhile to argument my point as you suggested it, even though it would make a long comment, as I surmised.

    So, all I am going to say relies mostly on a personal experience in communication during which I had been concerned at some point with similar, say, “things.”

    First of all, my reader has to accept a notion which says that scientists, and even respected scientists sometimes, may be fooled in the very frame of their specialty. For, no matter how smart and educated we are, the diploma we may have in our pocket, the name of the university in which we teach; we are human and, as such, we are subject to credulity, self-delusion, vanity, ambition, bellow-the-line mental impairment, and influence.

    There is a long record of reputed scientist who succumbed to these weaknesses. Many believed or still believe in the existence of extraterrestrial visits on earth aboard flying saucers. Others feel personally compelled in particular forms of ideology or irrational beliefs. Others are just dishonest and do not hesitate to fool others either in order to prove the validity of what they sincerely believe in, or in order to collect others’ interest, or even sometimes in order to get money or to obtain subsides to finance their researches.

    In most instances those “flawed” scholars and scientists act thus way in total independence and for very personal reasons. They are not at all acting in the frame of a conspiracy or else.

    We are dealing here with cognitive consistency and interaction between theory and data. Consistency can largely be understood in terms of the strong tendency or people to see what they want to see and to assimilate incoming information to pre-existing images.

    So, it happens sometimes that one of those persons fancying sulfurous theory successfully collects the interest of quite down-to-earth organizations which, truly, do not subscribe to their theories. For, their prestigious and credible credentials, and the prestige of their reputation or this of the university or research centre or which they work, added to the hazardous theories in which they personally venture, may serve other particular aims and goals.
    In other words, certain hardly verifiable theories and assumptions may get much credit, or at least interest, when proposed, advocated, and promoted by famous or respectable persons. I am talking about what we use to call “influence.”

    Since we are not intellectually omnipotent, how to make the difference between serious scientific theories and works worthy to collect our interest and scientific disinformation?

    To draw inferences from ambiguous information, one must employ less certain intellectual tools. The question to ask of these ways of thinking are whether they yield perceptions that are as accurate as those that would be produced by other processes and, at minimum, whether they are rational. This is particularly tricky when attempting to draw inferences from scientific data which, by its diversity of fields is likely to put us at some point, if not often, in terra incognita.

    When this occurs, when the advanced theories we are interested in seem hardly questionable for want of a suited scientific knowledge, we have to rely on other considerations.

    Personally, when facing such challenge, I turn, first, to syntax and semantic analysis in the aim to find patterns likely to betray a possible slight mental unbalance, or to spot the presence of too elliptic phrases and statements and their frequency. Often, scientists and authors attempting to fool others or to “honestly” convince others “trick” the content of their essay through the over use of prestigious names and quotations which sustain points and assumption that, truly, hardly connect each with others while we are dedicating much of our attention to it. An essay containing prestigious names and quotations pertaining to too many and a priori unrelated scientific fields betrays an unscientific way of doing things and so it is highly suspect.
    Most good and serious scientists manage to make their point clear and sustain their statements with citations and names.

    Moreover, further inquiries about names and citations are pretty useful and will provide us with a precious knowledge on the foundations sustaining the works and assumptions of the author who is the object of our scrutiny. It will tell us whether these parts or the near totality of this scientific background is likely to be scientifically obsolete, or even ideologically or politically biased, for example.

    But, balanced structures do not necessarily reveals irrationality if the cognitive consistency of a given scientist or author can be explained by his well grounded beliefs about the consistency existing in the environment he is perceiving; and so an author or a scientist may be sometimes honest and wrong at the same time.

    Because many of the structures in the world are balanced, the tendency to perceive balance often serves people well. It may, of course, lead people astray when the stimuli do not fit the pattern. As example picturing this last point, though it is not relevant to scientific matters, this is one reason why American decision-makers were slow to recognize that two of their enemies (Soviet Union and China) were hostile to each other.

    When I said rational I meant those ways of interpreting evidence that conform to the generally accepted rules of drawing inferences. Conversely, irrational methods and influences violate these rules of the “scientific method” and would be rejected by the person if he were aware of employing them.

    We should not deduce from the observation of inconsistencies that the scientist or the author which is under our scrutiny is necessarily dishonest. For, when cognitions are organized to produce irrational consistency, choice are easier since all considerations are seen as pointing to the same conclusion. Nothing has to be sacrificed. But since the real world is not as benign as these perceptions, values are indeed sacrificed and important choices are made, only they are made inadvertently. As I said earlier, most scientists and authors who are advocating a disputable theory or thesis do it with authentic sincerity.

    As I previously said, some of those scientists and authors venturing into hard-to-prove or disputable speculations are sometimes the target of organization truly looking for misinformation and disinformation operations done either in order to implicitly sustain or challenge political or religious ideologies or other scientific theory, or to help arouse doubt in other’s mind, or to confuse other’s mind (i.e. those of an opponent), or to “pollute” their mind with irrelevant information or “noise.” These practices belong to the realm of information warfare, or psychology warfare.

    While it is important to consider separately the reliability of the source, as indicated by previous records, and the inherent credibility of the message, as indicated by its compatibility with other evidences, the final judgment should rest on an evaluation of both factors.

    As conclusion to this long post I sustain my point with some examples.

    Sigmund Freud’s assumptions and theory sustained left-leaning inclinations, even though this famous scientist would certainly retort that his works and discoveries sustained on the contrary the validity of socialism as best solution to general discontent. However, Freud happen to be right about many things that do not relate to political or ideological considerations.

    Jean Emile Charon, a French nuclear physicist, conducted nuclear research at France’s Commissariat à l’Energie Atomique (Atomic Energy Commission). At some point of his career, this reputed scientist crossed the limits defined by the whole scientific community when he attempted to unify in a same theory—he named theory of “complex relativity”—quantum mechanics and a sulfurous perception of the human mind. He published several books filled with challenging mathematic and physics formula of his own which all demonstrated the existence of a sub particle he called “electron-eon.”

    From time to time, we all hear about archeologists who deliberately burry authentic archeological items, previously found elsewhere, in the ground of an archeological site in order to demonstrate the validity of their theory.

    Alan David Sokal is a professor of physics and faculty member of the mathematics department at New York University. He received his Ph.D. from Princeton University in 1981. In January 2006, he was appointed as the Chair of Statistical Mechanics & Combinatorics at University College London. Curious to see whether a prestigious scientic publication would publish a submission which "flattered the editors' ideological preconceptions", Sokal submitted for publication a grand-sounding, but nonsensical paper entitled "Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity". The journal did publish it, and Sokal then revealed the hoax, so as to prove how easily the most qualified and most competent scientist can be abused by titles and challenging essay sparkled with serious and unquestionable quotations.
    Last edited by Dominique R. Poirier; 07-05-2007 at 02:05 PM.

  2. #2
    Council Member Rob Thornton's Avatar
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    Smile Its all good

    Dominique,
    No need to apologize. I just wanted everyone to know that much of the value in this site comes from diverse conversations and views. Sometimes we will take something (a thought or perspective) and extract a new angle from what it engendered in its original context - it just helps us think. Understanding that something's original context is also very helpful and may steer us to something better - I beleive that is all you were trying to do.

    Your thoughts are appreciated and helpful, and I'm very glad you are participating. Can't write more now as I'm taking the family to see the Liberty Bell.

    Best regards, Rob

  3. #3
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Dominque and Rob,

    It is a good point to remember that we can get locked into our mindsets .

    Dominique, I assign the Sokal papers to my students as an example of this. As a note, the idea of combining "consciousness" with quantum mechanics has been fairly popular, at least in some crowds (e.g. Dennet, Penrose), since the early 1990's. On the plus side, they were attempting to define, as part of that debate, exactly how you would go about testing such a theory. The discovery of quantum gate structures in neuronal cells in 1995 (I think - can't remember the reference of the top of my head) does actually give a potential physical basis for it.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  4. #4
    Council Member Nat Wilcox's Avatar
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    Default I don't know social contagion theory,

    but there is (what seems to be) a related collection of theories of imitative behavior, "herding" and so forth in decision and game theory, plus an experimental literature that looks at it.

    You can think of imitation as something a reasonable person 3 might do when only weakly informed themselves, even when their own weak information considered alone recommends non-imitation. Suppose person 3 has weak information favoring action Y over action X. But person 3 also observes that persons 1 and 2 have chosen to take action X rather than Y. Suppose also that person 3 believes that her own information is no better than that of persons 1 and 2, and also believes that her own values and/or goals are not very different from those of persons 1 and 2. Then it may be reasonable for her to completely ignore her own information, and imitate persons 1 and 2.

    Now, let person 4 show up, also in the same situation as person 3 was. He sees three people taking action X over Y. And so he too ignores his own information. And so forth. Decisions "herd together" and it becomes reasonable for all subsequent weakly informed decision makers to ignore their own information. Fittingly, the theorists call this an "information cascade."

    Interestingly, "reverse cascades" can form when everyone receives only noisy and weak information...these are cascades where everyone takes the "wrong" decision..."wrong" in the sense that, if there was some alternative way to pool everyone's (individually ignored) information publicly, it would be clear that everyone had been fooled into herding on the wrong decision.

    As I mentioned, there is some experimental literature on information cascades if anyone is interested in them. I suspect that, for the purposes of this group, information cascades and other kinds of "reasonable herding" are most useful as an idea to keep in mind--simply, that there may be "good reasons" for any actor in a social network to imitate or herd, so that it may be a difficult thing to fight or alter.

    It also suggests that one way to break cascades and herds is to supply alternatives to inferring information from the observation of decisions...alternatives that allow for all individuals' weak bits of information to be combined publicly. The whole problem with cascades is that once enough decisions line up so that people ignore their own information in making their own decision, future decisions become uninformative.
    Last edited by Nat Wilcox; 07-05-2007 at 09:20 PM. Reason: little errors...whoops

  5. #5
    Council Member Dominique R. Poirier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat Wilcox View Post
    but there is (what seems to be) a related collection of theories of imitative behavior, "herding" and so forth in decision and game theory, plus an experimental literature that looks at it.

    You can think of imitation as something a reasonable person 3 might do when only weakly informed themselves, even when their own weak information considered alone recommends non-imitation. Suppose person 3 has weak information favoring action Y over action X. But person 3 also observes that persons 1 and 2 have chosen to take action X rather than Y. Suppose also that person 3 believes that her own information is no better than that of persons 1 and 2, and also believes that her own values and/or goals are not very different from those of persons 1 and 2. Then it may be reasonable for her to completely ignore her own information, and imitate persons 1 and 2.

    Now, let person 4 show up, also in the same situation as person 3 was. He sees three people taking action X over Y. And so he too ignores his own information. And so forth. Decisions "herd together" and it becomes reasonable for all subsequent weakly informed decision makers to ignore their own information. Fittingly, the theorists call this an "information cascade."

    Interestingly, "reverse cascades" can form when everyone receives only noisy and weak information...these are cascades where everyone takes the "wrong" decision..."wrong" in the sense that, if there was some alternative way to pool everyone's (individually ignored) information publicly, it would be clear that everyone had been fooled into herding on the wrong decision.

    As I mentioned, there is some experimental literature on information cascades if anyone is interested in them. I suspect that, for the purposes of this group, information cascades and other kinds of "reasonable herding" are most useful as an idea to keep in mind--simply, that there may be "good reasons" for any actor in a social network to imitate or herd, so that it may be a difficult thing to fight or alter.

    It also suggests that one way to break cascades and herds is to supply alternatives to inferring information from the observation of decisions...alternatives that allow for all individuals' weak bits of information to be combined publicly. The whole problem with cascades is that once enough decisions line up so that people ignore their own information in making their own decision, future decisions become uninformative.
    Nat,
    All you say seems to be inspired by observations about stock market. Isn’t that so?

  6. #6
    Council Member Nat Wilcox's Avatar
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    Default Dominique,

    Yes and no. The first theoretical paper I know of did indeed have some finance researchers amongst the coauthors; it's definitely right to say that the statistical logic of cascades partly emerged from thinking about fads, fashions, bubbles and crashes in asset markets. The funny thing, though--as with many such things--is that the formal logic of a cascade doesn't precisely apply to an asset market (or at least, not all of it), so that there is a bit of a disconnect there between the kinds of phenomena that inspired the cascade and their own formal logic.

    The reason for this is that the "discreteness" of the observed decision (the "choose X or Y" scenario I described) in a true cascade is crucial to its logic. In a situation where people observe and choose bids and asks, which are roughly continuous, the person 3 can indeed reveal new information by the bid or ask she submits, although she would of course sensibly pay attention to, and be influenced by, the previously observed offers of persons 1 and 2. But this is a crucial difference, because person 3 (and then person 4, and so on) will continue to reveal new and useful information by their actions. The thing about true information cascade situations that is uniquely interesting, is that there comes a point in them where everyone ceases to act at all on their own information.

    Inferences from others' decisions is a situation where the quantal (or discrete) versus the continuous turns out to be a crucial distinction (theoretically speaking, anyway).

    The Wikipedia entry linked below, as you will see, is a bit internally confused (it first points out the crucialness of the discreteness of the decision to the logic, but then goes on to assert some connection to asset markets where decisions are not discrete). But it has a lot of good links to large bibliographies. You can see in these bibliographies that there have been many applications to technology adoption, voting, etc.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informational_cascade

  7. #7
    Council Member Dominique R. Poirier's Avatar
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    Default Nat,

    Nat,
    There is something that disturbs me in all this and I explain why.

    The fact that a number X of persons chose the wrong way because they tend to rely in priority to what they see, and not to what they have been told cannot be summed up in a unifying branch of science or theory we would name “information cascade.”

    In other words, I perceive it as a deductive fallacy.

    Game theory doesn’t apply to your problem since there is no game in that case. If the first person takes the wrong way, then it doesn’t change the value of the winning prize, according to the rules you set up. While persisting, with a bit of humor, on using the game theory terminology one might say that this case is a “multi-player unlimited-sum non-game.”

    Also, another missing element in that problem to make it a case relevant to game theory at some point is the notion that “win” implies “loss” for others. Actors involved in that case scenario may win or lose, individually and it doesn’t entail further consequences for the others. In this sense, and in supposing that we would like to find solutions through hard sciences such as logics or mathematics, then we might find them in theory of gambling or statistical logic. For, when the person 3 chooses to rely on what he witnessed instead of what he learned or was told before, then he is just gambling!

    I justify my point.

    Consider for a while that the person 3 is a “player” I’ll name P3, and that the precedent actions of the players 1 and 2 may be assimilated to “events” I’ll name E1, E2, and En if ever we were eventually considering the case of the persons 4, 12, 97, or more.
    Equally I temporarily consider that the cues the player 3 has been provided with constitute an event too since notions of space, time, and history may apply the same way (he has been told or learned this information somewhere, sometimes). So I’ll name this last event E0. The sole difference between E0 and the events E1, E2 and En is a formal difference. The former is a told event of uncertain value while the latter constitute seen events of equal uncertain value.

    In all cases, E1 and E2 may be considered as randomly generated events since there is no clear cut indication that these previous events constitute in themselves reliable sources of information, indeed.
    If P3 chooses to rely on E1 and E2, then he relies on assumptions since E1 and E2 constitute informations discrepant to E0. In other words, he is gambling; and his choice to take the left (wrong) way because, at least, he witnessed E1, demonstrates that he acted in compliance with the bandwagon effect theory or with human tendency toward mimetic. If mimetic or bandwagon effect apply to our problem, then we must turn to other fields we name crowd behavior or mass psychology or even consumer behavior, all fields that provide satisfactory answers to our question. And since there is a probability for that P3 may chose to rely on P0 and to take the right way then statistical logic applies too as it applies to consumer behavior.

    Since E1 and E2 constitute sources of information whose value are similar to this of E0, then P3 is confronted to the same situation in which a consumer is; as in the frame of another discipline called marketing and communication.
    From the standpoint of this other discipline I do not name science the greater the number of occurrence for a given message A (A meaning En since it may encompass E1, E2, and more) the greater the odds that P3 (or Pn, if ever the case arises) will chose A instead of B (B meaning N0, or Nn if the case arises). This fact is no mere theory since applied marketing and communication prove it on a daily basis.

    I see another way to tackle this problem which will consist in turning upside down the situation so as to make it relevant to the realm of game theory. In that case, E1, E2, and En would be summed up under the form of a mere message sent by a notional player we would name X; and, equally, EO would be a message sent by a second player we would name Y. The stake would be the number of persons successfully convinced (and so “won”) by each of these two players.

    Well, I could go on with other examples, possibly. But all we would learn from it is that there is no way to find solutions through the use of a new discipline we would name “information cascade” since such terminology would pretend to take precedence over already well known other fields which provide satisfying and verifiable explanations.

    Unless I missed something at some point, that’s the way I see it, Nat.

    Regards,
    Last edited by Dominique R. Poirier; 07-06-2007 at 10:11 AM.

  8. #8
    Council Member Dominique R. Poirier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Hi Dominque and Rob,

    It is a good point to remember that we can get locked into our mindsets .

    Dominique, I assign the Sokal papers to my students as an example of this. As a note, the idea of combining "consciousness" with quantum mechanics has been fairly popular, at least in some crowds (e.g. Dennet, Penrose), since the early 1990's. On the plus side, they were attempting to define, as part of that debate, exactly how you would go about testing such a theory. The discovery of quantum gate structures in neuronal cells in 1995 (I think - can't remember the reference of the top of my head) does actually give a potential physical basis for it.

    Marc
    Marc,
    I have been interested in quantum mechanics during close to a couple of years circa the early 90’s and I have to acknowledge, in the defense of those who lost ground at some point, that your landmarks may be seriously challenged when you comes at last to understand that the mass of a particle is expressed in energy units, and that mass, as the profane understands it at a macroscopic level, has no longer relevance in the realm of microcosm. You come to realize that everything around us, and us including, is all about energy. From this standpoint on I think that the leap toward irrationality is a small one and is easy to do.

    As a matter of fact, and still talking about cognitive bias, I remember some interesting conversations I have had about the opportunities that could be found in the fairly rational mass/energy equivalence as a way of getting people into any imaginary world that would please to you (ex. spiritualism and ghosts, telekinesis, telepathy, nihilism, etc.)

    I guess I won’t teach you anything in saying that, as science, quantum mechanics has the exceptional particularity to have regularly allowed accurate predictions of physical events without previous testing and with mere theory and calculations as sole information available--the prediction of the existence of the quark and of its exact number per particle, if I may describe things that way, is one among the best examples.
    Although it is not relevant to quantum mechanics the theory of general relativity equally relates to this exceptional specificity and it is even a better example since it is more popularly known.

    So, quantum mechanics constitutes both a nice example and a nice opportunity for whosoever is looking for a sound fulcrum in order to fool others’ mind.

    There would be a thick book to write about the matter. Isn’t it?

    Regards,

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