Results 1 to 20 of 55

Thread: Controversial article about parachute operations

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    78

    Default

    80 km = 40 km to left and 40 km to the right, enough safety distance to most enemy artillery. That's where 80 km diameter comes from. Of course nobody needs 80km runway. But just securing an airfield to use it while under artillery fire is BS.

    M777/LW155 batteries (why batteries in the first place with modern tech?) set up facing in different directions. The gun has a traverse of +/-400 mils, 360° is for Americans 640 mils, so you'd need 8 batteries (guns) to cover all 360°, probably 7 if some range is wasted and emplacement optimized for traverse coverage.
    Anything beyond that +/-400mils traverse requires to move the spade out of the ground (never gets stuck, of course!), turn with manpower, ram it again into the ground and fire. Requirement for that was 2-3 minutes. For an action that some other towed gun designs do in 10-20 seconds since about sixty years.

    [/quote]And I thought MRL systems were Korean War-simple, yet you make them out to be inefficient as it suits you:
    The responsiveness to different missions (different munitions) is also better, and accuracy is better for unguided munitions. Minimum range is smaller. I meant this for the 30 km range, without BB or RAP.
    Are you reading all of this out of your copy of Jane's, or a Tom Clancy novel?[/quote]

    I don't read Clancy, and I don't need Jane's A&A for such fundamentals.
    Artillery aiming is relatively simple in comparison to much of today's other military activities, unobserved indirect artillery fire is more than 100 years old. A target like a long runway can easily be hit and even more easily be threatened.
    Yet at the same time rocket artillery cannot as quickly respond to different missions as howitzers and mortars, as you cannot simply in a couple of seconds unload the DPICM rockets to load WP and switch to HE for some cratering or else. A military professional should not doubt such facts.
    But maybe you can actually prove that anything in above quote (well, my part of the quote) was wrong instead of resorting to polemic?

    Well, anyway. Why should I care. As long as it's not my people I shouldn't care if other armies try missions like seizing an airhead and using it with 250 million $ airplanes loaded with dozens of soldiers while under artillery fire.

    Airfield operation under artillery fire has been done before. It eliminated much of the Luftwaffe's transport aircraft inventory in winter 1942/1943 near Stalingrad.
    Of course, no enemy that the USA will attack in the next years will be as sophisticated as the Red Army in 1942/43...operating rocket artillery is too challenging... the enemies are too dumb... Murphy's Law doesn't exist... no one would emplace mines below the runway to blow it up in time... U.S. presidents have the guts to send thousands of relatively lightly armed troops behind enemy lines... no one would simply build some concrete obstacles on the runway or blow it up in advance as the own air force cannot use it anyway... no one would pre-register artillery or even mortars on possible infiltration points...howitzers have a longer minimum firing distance than a MRL...MRL unguided rockets have less dispersion than howitzer rounds...HIMARS is fine for obscuration missions...whatever. I learned a lto today.


    I'll tell you something. All I'd need to make any airfield useless and unacceptable for forced entry missions is to cover parts of it with garbage. Ah, and I'd set up some snipers with IR sights and passive IR movement sensors to cover it.
    The uncertainty if the runway could be made usable in time and if it's even left or already blown up would make the whole airfield useless for the planners.

    Sorry for double posts, the forum first showed me page 3 as last page and I bet one post of double length wouldn't be an easier read.

  2. #2
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SOCAL
    Posts
    2,152

    Default

    I'll tell you something. All I'd need to make any airfield useless and unacceptable for forced entry missions is to cover parts of it with garbage. Ah, and I'd set up some snipers with IR sights and passive IR movement sensors to cover it.
    The uncertainty if the runway could be made usable in time and if it's even left or already blown up would make the whole airfield useless for the planners.
    By all means Napoleon, have at it. You win! You sunk my battleship!?! Maybe I'll trump your sniper with my AC-130 Spectre? Oh wait, I forgot that those snipers will be wearing their invisibility cloaks...no...aw crap, that's the Harry Potter stuff...

    Gotta remember to take my eldest to the midnight freakshow at Borders so she can pick up her copy.
    Last edited by jcustis; 07-11-2007 at 02:28 AM.

  3. #3
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    78

    Smile

    OK, then we quit both. This is not going to convince anyone anyway.

    The article wasn't great and no better than an ordinary forum post somewhere in the vast internet and it's not worth to argue like this about details.

  4. #4
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Wherever my stuff is
    Posts
    824

    Default

    Check it out. For guys like me and JCustis, this isn't our hobby.

    This is our job.

    Let go of our ears. We know what we're doing.
    Example is better than precept.

  5. #5
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    499

    Default

    I never meant for this to turn into a flame war. I just thought it was basically a goofy little article, poorly thought out and articulated, with only one (to me) interesting point: greater possible use of small scale tactical parachute operations.

    People were sounding the death knell of the Airborne way before I graduated jump school in 1984. Yet, just post Vietnam we've seen Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan, northern Iraq, and one operation called off in Haiti where the invasion force had already gone "wheels up." Now throw in numerous small operations in Africa conducted by the French, Belgians, Rhodesians, and South Africans. Mass tactical airborne operations are far from "no longer relevant."

    Let's Go, Falcons!
    "Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper

  6. #6
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default

    Rifleman, you forgot the Yom Kippor war in Israel where the USSR threatened to send in troops to support Egypt. I was 1 hour away from boarding the aircraft to go to the ME. When the USSR found this out they backed down. It was largest 82nd alert outside of the 1962 missile crisis at the time. This all happened during the backround of the first Arab oil embargos. They were interesting times to say the least.

  7. #7
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,099

    Default

    General Orders No. 10
    Headquarters, Department of the Army
    Washington, DC, 25 September 2006

    UNITS CREDITED WITH ASSAULT LANDINGS


    I—GENERAL.

    1. In accordance with the provisions of AR 600-8-22, paragraph 7-25, the units listed in section II below were designated by the Senior Army Commander in the theater operations as having participated in a parachute (to include free fall), amphibious, or helicopter assault landing.

    2. When entering individual credit on the Enlisted Record Brief or Officer Record Brief, this general orders may be cited as authority for such entries for Soldiers who were present for duty as a member of or attached to a unit listed herein and actually participated in a combat parachute jump, free fall combat jump, helicopter assault landing, combat glider landing, or amphibious assault landing at the place and time during the period indicated. A Soldier must actually exit the aircraft or landing craft to receive assault landing credit.

    3. Under the provisions of AR 600-8-22, paragraph 7-25, the designation of a combat assault landing is determined and approved by the Senior Army Commander in the theater of operations. Eligibility of individuals to wear the bronze arrowhead on the designated campaign medal (Global War On Terrorism Expeditionary Medal, Iraqi Campaign Medal, or Afghanistan Campaign Medal) is established by this approval. This approval also authorizes eligible Soldiers to affix a bronze service star to their Parachute Badge or the Military Free Fall Parachute Badge, denoting completion of a combat parachute jump or combat free fall jump.

    II—LIST. The following units were designated by the Senior Army Commander in the theater of operations as having participated in a parachute (to include freefall), amphibious, or helicopter assault landing.

    ....

    b. Helmand Desert, Afghanistan (Parachute), 1845Z-0014Z hours, 19 October 2001 to 20 October 2001.

    75th Ranger Regiment, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, Detachment
    75th Ranger Regiment, 3d Battalion, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, Detachment
    75th Ranger Regiment, 3d Battalion, Company A, Detachment
    75th Ranger Regiment, 3d Battalion, Company C, Detachment

    c. In the vicinity of Alimarden Kan-E-Bagat, Afghanistan (Parachute), 1800Z-2334Z hours, inclusive, 13 November 2001.

    75th Ranger Regiment, 3d Battalion, Company B, Detachment

    d. Near Chahar Borjak, Nimruz Province, Afghanistan (Parachute), 1345Z-1445Z hours, inclusive, 25 February 2003.

    75th Ranger Regiment, 2d Battalion, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, Detachment
    75th Ranger Regiment, 2d Battalion, Company A, Detachment
    75th Ranger Regiment, 2d Battalion, Company C, Detachment
    504th Infantry, 3d Battalion, Company B, Detachment

    .....

    w. Bashur Drop Zone in Northern Iraq (Parachute), 1700Z to 1737Z hours, inclusive, 26 March 2003.

    1st Special Forces, 10th Special Forces Group, 2d Special Forces Battalion, Detachment
    74th Infantry, Detachment
    173d Airborne Brigade, Headquarters and Headquarters Company
    173d Support Company
    250th Medical Detachment
    319th Field Artillery, Battery D
    501st Support Company
    503d Infantry, 2d Battalion
    508th Infantry, 1st Battalion
    4th Air Support Operations Squadron (United States Air Force)
    86th Contingency Response Group (United States Air Force)

    x. Northwestern Desert region of Iraq, in the vicinity of the town of Al Qaim, near the Syrian border (Parachute), 1830Z to 2230Z hours, inclusive, 24 March 2003.

    75th Ranger Regiment, 3d Battalion, Company C
    75th Ranger Regiment, 3d Battalion, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, Detachment
    24th Special Tactics Squadron, Detachment (United States Air Force)

    y. At H1 airfield in western Iraq, west of the Haditha Dam and the town of Haditha (Parachute), 1835Z to 1200Z hours, 28 and 29 March 2003.

    27th Engineer Battalion, Detachment
    75th Ranger Regiment, 3d Battalion, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, Detachment
    75th Ranger Regiment, 3d Battalion, Company A
    24th Special Tactics Squadron, Detachment (United States Air Force)

    z. Southeastern region of Afghanistan (Free Fall), 1735Z to 1800Z hours, inclusive, 3 July 2004.

    75th Ranger Regiment, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, Regimental Reconnaissance Detachment, Team 3
    Last edited by Jedburgh; 07-11-2007 at 01:55 PM.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •