All matters Rhodesian / Rhodesia (merged thread)

[JMA]

I'm not surprised at how amazed the Rhodesians would have been at seeing what the South Africans had accomplished. When you consider how quickly things seemed to progress from looking at Pookie prototypes to developing the Bosvark, the Buffel and then the Casspir, it's an incredible achievement. Then to consider how successful both the Buffel and the Casspir have been over the last three decades or more, it's really quite remarkable. They've been quite long-lived vehicles.

Development in South Africa was parallel where the SAP (police) and the military worked separately with the military retaining the conventional chassis with its suspension system (the Buffel) while the SAP developed the monocoque design used by Konchel in Rhodesia on the Leopard further (into the Casspir).

It should be noted that while Rhodesian vehicles were designed to travel on roads and tracks the South Africans developed vehicles with cross country capability to avoid roads and tracks that could be mined.

Book to read:

Taming the Landmine - by Peter Stiff

[Biggus]

Taming the Landmine - by Peter Stiff

Thank you for the tip.

[flagg]

My interest lies largely with the back to the wall innovation displayed by Rhodesian forces.

My greatest interest lies in Selous Scouts/Special Branch, SAS, and RLI operations....most specifically with external operations conducted by SAS and Selous Scouts.

There have been some great books out in recent years about the conflict.

A recent couple of titles seem well regarded but VERY hard to come by, such as Pittaway's book series on SAS and Selous Scouts:

http://dandy.co.za/

Unfortunately, out of print.

I'd just about sell my soul if I could find a copy of Pittaway's SAS: The Men Speak and especially Selous Scouts: The Men Speak

Recently read Viscount Down and was quite impressed with the book to go along with Ron Reid Daly's Selous Scouts book and Barbara Cole's The Elite.

Just lined up Dennis Croukamp's Bush War book next and waiting for a book on Rhodesian Special Branch.

I wonder how relevant the paramilitary merge between Selous Scouts and Special Branch is in today's climate and the likely future climate?

[JMA]

My interest lies largely with the back to the wall innovation displayed by Rhodesian forces.

My greatest interest lies in Selous Scouts/Special Branch, SAS, and RLI operations....most specifically with external operations conducted by SAS and Selous Scouts.

There have been some great books out in recent years about the conflict.

A recent couple of titles seem well regarded but VERY hard to come by, such as Pittaway's book series on SAS and Selous Scouts:

http://dandy.co.za/

Unfortunately, out of print.

I'd just about sell my soul if I could find a copy of Pittaway's SAS: The Men Speak and especially Selous Scouts: The Men Speak

Recently read Viscount Down and was quite impressed with the book to go along with Ron Reid Daly's Selous Scouts book and Barbara Cole's The Elite.

Just lined up Dennis Croukamp's Bush War book next and waiting for a book on Rhodesian Special Branch.

I wonder how relevant the paramilitary merge between Selous Scouts and Special Branch is in today's climate and the likely future climate?

Hi Flagg,

Had breakfast with Jonathan Pittaway this morning and sadly there are no immediate plans for additional print runs for his SAS and Selous Scouts books. Keep your eyes out on e-bay.

Don't forget the RLI book (proceeds to the Regimental Association):

Africa's Commandos: The Rhodesian Light Infantry

Other books can be found on facebook group: Rhodesian War Books including fiction.

[flagg]

Hi Flagg,

Had breakfast with Jonathan Pittaway this morning and sadly there are no immediate plans for additional print runs for his SAS and Selous Scouts books. Keep your eyes out on e-bay.

Don't forget the RLI book (proceeds to the Regimental Association):

Africa's Commandos: The Rhodesian Light Infantry

Other books can be found on facebook group: Rhodesian War Books including fiction.

I finally got my hands on two Pittaway books: SAS and Selous Scouts.

Both highly recommended. I suspect these books will continue to climb in value due to such low print volume.

Of all the books I have on the respective topics, I reckon these are both the best.

-----

I also just added this one:

Special Branch War, Ed Bird

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1909982342/

[JMA]

I finally got my hands on two Pittaway books: SAS and Selous Scouts.

Both highly recommended. I suspect these books will continue to climb in value due to such low print volume.

Of all the books I have on the respective topics, I reckon these are both the best.

Glad you came right. You want to share how much they are going for?

Now you need this one to to complete your Rhodesian unit histories

AFRICA'S COMMANDOS

[flagg]

Glad you came right. You want to share how much they are going for?

Now you need this one to to complete your Rhodesian unit histories

AFRICA'S COMMANDOS

I may have to since I've already got some of Chris Cock's other books:

Fireforce
Out of Action
Saints

I paid about $100USD for each from different sellers plus shipping to NZ.

Not cheap, but worth it.

I will eventually pick up Pittaway's other books LRDG(Rhodie) and Koevoet(Saffie) as well.

[McArthur]

My interest is in the use of pseudo-operations during the Rhodesian Bush War.

Reading about the Selous Scouts prompted me to begin studying pseudo ops, and I've been working (albeit slowly ) on the project for the past year.

- Mac

[davidbfpo]

My interest is in the use of pseudo-operations during the Rhodesian Bush War. Reading about the Selous Scouts prompted me to begin studying pseudo ops, and I've been working (albeit slowly ) on the project for the past year.

- Mac

Mac,

You are not alone in this interest. At one stage quite a few books often with a more military emphasis referred to such tactics aka "dirty tricks", then there was a pause and IIRC a book by an ex-BSAP officer, Ellert being the author, added a lot more. I don't think we know much today, if records existed they have gone and now Rhodesian memories are fading away. In my reading I have yet to encounter the views of the targets, the liberation fighters.

The Ellert book was published in 1989:http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rhodesian-fr...t+%2B+rhodesia

[JMA]

Mac,

You are not alone in this interest. At one stage quite a few books often with a more military emphasis referred to such tactics aka "dirty tricks", then there was a pause and IIRC a book by an ex-BSAP officer, Ellert being the author, added a lot more. I don't think we know much today, if records existed they have gone and now Rhodesian memories are fading away. In my reading I have yet to encounter the views of the targets, the liberation fighters.

David,

From the Rhodesian forces there has been restraint on writing about the 'dirty tricks' stuff. In those days much of what was done was considered to be smart innovation - which could be/would be viewed differently in todays world.

There is detail starting to come out with other stuff waiting for the right moment to be released. When that will be I'm not sure.

For instance A book by Ed Bird who was with SB has published a book based on the SB Diary which he took out of the country with him after the war. Disarming honesty. I know Ed, he lives down the coast a few hours and told me he was not censoring anything for the book.

Special Branch War: Slaughter in the Rhodesian Bush. Southern Matabeleland, 1976-1980

I too am in search of content from 'the other side'. Yet to find anything that seems vaguely honest. For example I bought a kindle book from a then child who was used to spy on troop movements and the like. When in his first chapter he wrote about the idyllic life experienced befor the colonists arrived I stopped reading.

Anyone with any historical knowledge would be aware of the inter clan wars and the invasion of the area some 50 years before the arrival of the colonists by the Ndebele in the 1830s made the area less than idyllic and peaceful as this liar maintains.

Another book by a female had a long piece about a supposed ambush on the Salisbury/Kariba road after which it took the Rhodesian forces three day to recover the bodies of their casualties. Nonsense, complete nonsense.

Then we have that piece - based on a doctoral thesis - published in the Journal which again was utter garbage.

It may take sometime and certainly until after the collapse of the Mugabe regime for the truth from that side to start coming out. In the meantime as per my Orwell quote below in the case of Zimbabwe it is a case of "He who controls the present controls the past."

[Firn]

@JMA: Ordered the book by Ed Bird. The fact that he took with him the SB diaries and based the book mostly on them sold it for me, apart from your approval of course.

Some time ago I listened to a podcast of the highly respected Christopher Browing in which he talked about the summary execution of twenty Jewish prisoners by fellow Jewish prisoners during a transfer by train.* This had been common knowledge among the survivors but only became public some twenty years ago. In other cases the dominant media narrative has slipped aspecific event into the collective memory of those survivors which never happened.

Your point about the difficulties to get 'content' from the other angle is likely a very valid one. If we consider the lenght and degree players on the other side were exposed to a rather unified narrative a lot of stuff must have been impressed and changed the memory. This is why old documents not intended for propaganda could be so important. We will see.

*Ironically similar things happened on trains bringing German POW home from the SU for similar reasons. Obviously still today is also practically only remembered that 'it' happened.