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  1. #1
    Council Member Abu Buckwheat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leaAPM View Post
    ... it's been very difficult to get people to talk to me frankly. Why is this?

    I realize it's an exceedingly difficult issue. But in spite of the fact that there is a lot more heat than light produced in the discussions and coverage of PMCs, I was anticipating more people to speak about their perspective and experiences through other outreach I've attempted. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but - really - why is it that people outside of this particular forum are so hesitant to talk about this issue? Any ideas?
    As a former PMC/PIC manager I have spoken about this extensively on the lightfighter.net forum and even reviewed the film on contractors and Rob Pelton's book (in complete disclosure he is a friend of mine).

    I am a big advocate of the use of the PMI/PIC community but I am also one of the biggest advocates that says it must be placed under military control and authority.

    The problem is the "M" word ... everyone keeps calling PM/PICs "Mercenaries" when if fact they have been contracted by the USG or subcontractor to meet specific force protection goals ... not the traditional finance motivated mercenaries the movies portray. There are no "mercenaries" in Iraq or Afghanistan withthe exception of some foreign terrorists and criminals who are paid for attacks on the coalition ... but on the American people do have jobs, for which they are oaid and which may result in them carrying a defensive weapon.

    The few "mercenaries" who were in Iraq all went home to South Africa in 200, formed up to conduct a coup in Equitorial Guinea and got caught in Zimbabwe ... end of mercenaries. In a word its why PMCs are so touchy.
    Putting Foot to Al Qaeda Ass Since 1993

  2. #2
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Abu Buckwheat,

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Buckwheat View Post
    The problem is the "M" word ... everyone keeps calling PM/PICs "Mercenaries" when if fact they have been contracted by the USG or subcontractor to meet specific force protection goals ... not the traditional finance motivated mercenaries the movies portray. There are no "mercenaries" in Iraq or Afghanistan withthe exception of some foreign terrorists and criminals who are paid for attacks on the coalition ... but on the American people do have jobs, for which they are oaid and which may result in them carrying a defensive weapon.

    The few "mercenaries" who were in Iraq all went home to South Africa in 200, formed up to conduct a coup in Equitorial Guinea and got caught in Zimbabwe ... end of mercenaries. In a word its why PMCs are so touchy.
    I'd certainly agree with that! Symbolically, "mercenary" does have connotations of "devil" compared with the "angel" of a soldier in national service. What I find fascinating, and this is from the angle of looking at symbol shifts, is the terminology change to "Private Military Contractor". I think that there is a real fight (at the symbolic level) over whether or not the term "contractor" is just "mercenary" in another form. Remember, I talking at the symbolic level of, say, national discourse.

    I think that the US may have a really nasty situation for this in the sense that there is a very vocal group, and I think you know who I mean , who argue that anyone who is armed and accepting payment is a "mercenary" in the pejorative sense ("myrmidon" is another word that often shows up - too bad most of that crowd doesn't know where it comes from ). Using the term PMC in some ways just plays into their hands - hey, they're like "private" man and, like, obviously running dogs of the capitalist oppressors !!!!!

    Marc
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    Maybe folks are reluctant to talk because we are still in the early stages of this date. We haven't even kissed yet, but you are asking some exceptionally intimate questions, if you'll pardon the weak metaphor. Some of us lurkers are trying to establish your bona fides and agendas before "coming out."

    Some of the underlying problems, in my mind are related to how the MSM treats information provided them. We're a little concerned that our comments, offered in frankness will be reduced to soundbites centered on the "outtake". Nobody wants to read/hear "general admits defeat in Iraq" for a 30 second caveat following a 20 minute positive assessment of his mission.

    A second problem in dealing with this specific issue is that previous authors have sometimes been exceptionally lax in their treatment of the subject. Many don't differentiate among the various flavors of contractors, then paint broad brush condemnations of groups or sub-groups based on extrapolation. Steve Metz' recent monograph does a very good job of differentiating among these groups. Bottom line: there are not 100,000 gun-toting mercenaries running around Iraq earning $10,000 a day. This issue deserves serious study, which I hope you are willing to do.

    Coming out.

    I was a contractor in Afghanistan several years ago. The Army determined that it needed someone with my education, experience and expertise to assist in rebuilding parts of the government there. We worked for and with active duty, reserve and coalition officers. We were not allowed to carry weapons or drive vehicles. We provided eee not easily available from other sources. Many of the active officers were moving through TDY back then, on loan from their real jobs, which may or may not have been tied to the mission at hand. Reservists were somewhat longer term, and sometimes brought civil sector expertise, but rarely at the highest levels of government. The slimey contractors could be custom ordered and were not subject to service rotation. Many stayed for several years. Most were not motivated by money because the suck level was high enough to make that unlikely. We were not paid thousands a day. Most of us were just hard-working Joes trying to make a difference.

    So, if you're going to examine the role of PMCs, I just ask that you do so thoroughly and fairly. There are issues out there. As someone already alluded to, contract administration needs to be improved, and where malfeasance is found, it needs to be crushed. The issue does not devolve to the simplicity of GI good, contractor bad; blue badge good, green badge bad.

    'Nuf said.

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    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Default The M Word

    I have posted on here in different threads my concerns on PMCs. You can find those simply by looking at my profile.

    I have dealt with the subject of mercenaries in my writings on the Congo in the 1960s. That was a different realm and a different time.

    I believe that the subjects of mercenaries versus contractors remains a valid linkage and a valid distinction. The leap from contractor to mercenary is neither broad nor distinct. It is there nonetheless.

    For a look at my own dealings with what became a UN hired mercenary operation see my memoirs Journey into Darkness: Genocide in Rwanda on Amazon or Texas A&M University Press. I lay out how I arranged to get a private security contractor to address security in the refugee camps in eastern Zaire in 1994. That initial foray later expanded as things do iin the Congo to a semi-mercenary operation using Zairian military forces on a private contract to provide security for the humanitarian community inside the country of Zaire.

    Finally I would say that Abu Buckwheat is in this case misinformed when it comes to the idea that the old days of the guns for hire mercs is gone. That is hardly the case. Mercs in one form or fashion have played large roles in Latin America's drug trade. In my old stomping grouns of eastern Zaire and Rwanda, the resurgent Hutu killers in eastern Zaire hired Serbian mercenaries as advisors and combatants. The Rwandan Defense Forces made short work of them. The Congo (old Zaire) remains an area where merc work is to be had if you know the right folks. I suspect that Zimbabwe will soon develop into a merc market if it has not already.

    Best

    Tom

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    Council Member Abu Buckwheat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Odom View Post
    Finally I would say that Abu Buckwheat is in this case misinformed when it comes to the idea that the old days of the guns for hire mercs is gone. That is hardly the case. Mercs in one form or fashion have played large roles in Latin America's drug trade. In my old stomping grouns of eastern Zaire and Rwanda, the resurgent Hutu killers in eastern Zaire hired Serbian mercenaries as advisors and combatants. The Rwandan Defense Forces made short work of them. The Congo (old Zaire) remains an area where merc work is to be had if you know the right folks. I suspect that Zimbabwe will soon develop into a merc market if it has not already.
    Whoops! Ha ha ... I forgot about the Serbs in Central Africa. Maybe I am subconciously trying to ignore that part ... but still, I can't equate PM/PICs in Iraq with Mercenaries at this time.
    Putting Foot to Al Qaeda Ass Since 1993

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    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Abu Buckwheat,

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Buckwheat View Post
    Whoops! Ha ha ... I forgot about the Serbs in Central Africa. Maybe I am subconciously trying to ignore that part ... but still, I can't equate PM/PICs in Iraq with Mercenaries at this time.
    Just a question - how would you characterize Executive Outcomes?

    Marc
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    Council Member Abu Buckwheat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Hi Abu Buckwheat,



    Just a question - how would you characterize Executive Outcomes?

    Marc
    EO was definately a Mercenary organization and I helped the USG take them down!
    Putting Foot to Al Qaeda Ass Since 1993

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    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MarcT: I certainly won't disagree with you on this, but I do have to wonder how many of these conditions are "inevitable" as a result of both the social and structural effects of globalization. Let me toss out a case in point.
    Marc,

    No disagreement on the societal issues. They play a large role in recruitment, whether one is talking private or government/military service. But what I have centered on in the past is the US internal perspective on this issue that arose as after the Berlin Wall came down and the Armed Forces were downsized. As we downsized we used an economic model which assumes contractors are always more cost effective or rather we assumed the conditions that would make contractors more effective.

    There is a very good relatively short historical paper at CSI called Public War, Private Fight? The United States and Private Military Companies by Deborah Kidwell that is well worth the read.

    Best

    Tom

  9. #9
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Buckwheat View Post
    Whoops! Ha ha ... I forgot about the Serbs in Central Africa. Maybe I am subconciously trying to ignore that part ... but still, I can't equate PM/PICs in Iraq with Mercenaries at this time.
    Neither do I. Where I have issues with the PMC industry is not the PMC industry but the folks who set the conditions which made them so necessary and the effects that has on the armed services.

    Best

    Tom

  10. #10
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Tom,

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Odom View Post
    Where I have issues with the PMC industry is not the PMC industry but the folks who set the conditions which made them so necessary and the effects that has on the armed services.
    I certainly won't disagree with you on this, but I do have to wonder how many of these conditions are "inevitable" as a result of both the social and structural effects of globalization. Let me toss out a case in point.

    In 1968, North America began to show a breakdown in the post WW II employment patterns and social expectations called the "post-war compromise". A large part of this breakdown came about as a result of the economic reconstruction of Germany and Japan after the war, while the US and Canada hadn't modernized most of their manufacturing capacity (and also had too much - BTW, this was most apparent in the automotive industry, but also showed up in others as well). Now, the post war compromise was linked to a fairly explicit social contract that can be summed up as "loyalty for security" (basically a form of the Authority Ranking [AR] social relationship; military organization is another form of the same AR relationship; see Alan P. Fiske's work on Human Sociality).

    This relationship was pretty much shot by 1975, and was generally recognized at the cultural and social levels by 1982/83, when it was in the process of being replaced with a different form of social relationship - Equality Matching (EM), aka reciprocity and/or networks (BTW, very similar to a form of neo-tribalism). In this setting, loyalty isn't given to organizations, it is given to personal networks. If you are interested, take a look at al of the literature on job search, which is how this little bit of cultural adaptation / engineering happened. As another comment, not that this shift coincides in the US with the abandonment of the draft and the shift to the volunteer Army.

    Now one of the characteristics of EM systems is that loyalty tends to be personalized - it is to individuals (including yourself, family, friends, network, etc.) and not to abstract institutions. This type of relationship is dominant in the Gen Y'ers (<30) who form the bulk of current junior service members, amongst whom "consulting" does not mean "unemployed" but, rather, has connotations of "freedom" and a balance between work and life. Most Gen Y'ers are also quite aware that hey need requisite training in order to pursue this type of life, and look towards the education system, loosely construed, to provide it. We can see it in the attitude of students at universities and colleges today and also, I suspect, in the attitudes of many junior officers and enlisted.

    In this type of social environment, it is, to my mind, inevitable that we would see a rise in the PMC market, with the emphasis on the "consulting" angle. Anyway, that's my 2 cents .

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  11. #11
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Hi Tom,
    . . .

    Now one of the characteristics of EM systems is that loyalty tends to be personalized - it is to individuals (including yourself, family, friends, network, etc.) and not to abstract institutions. This type of relationship is dominant in the Gen Y'ers (<30) who form the bulk of current junior service members, amongst whom "consulting" does not mean "unemployed" but, rather, has connotations of "freedom" and a balance between work and life. Most Gen Y'ers are also quite aware that hey need requisite training in order to pursue this type of life, and look towards the education system, loosely construed, to provide it. We can see it in the attitude of students at universities and colleges today and also, I suspect, in the attitudes of many junior officers and enlisted.

    In this type of social environment, it is, to my mind, inevitable that we would see a rise in the PMC market, with the emphasis on the "consulting" angle. Anyway, that's my 2 cents .

    Marc
    Good post and I think you're correct. It was a an inevitable move in many respects, not least those you cite and the $$$. We didn't do it well but I think it'll get sorted and fixed.

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