Northern Ireland (merged thread)

[JMA]

The sad follow on from here is that:

Bloody Sunday: Soldiers may face prosecution over 'unjustifiable' killings

I agree with the following quote from the news article:

Lord Maginnis of Drumglas, an Ulster Unionist peer, said the report was "one-eyed" in its emphasis on just 14 of the 180 violent deaths in the province in the preceding year.

As per my comments on Algeria... why single out these acts?

By all means prosecute these soldiers if there is a case to answer but lets see the next inquiry into the other deaths begin immediately.

[Red Rat]

Unsurprisingly the strong feeling in my quarters is that it would be duplicitous at best if soldiers were prosecuted for past wrongs committed in the heat of the moment, when under the Good Friday Agreement terrorists received an amnesty.

It will be interesting to see what the various Republican agendas in Northern Ireland will make from this.

Of note, although it rarely makes the news, is that the levels of terrorist violence in Northern Ireland have (IMHO) now passed those seen in the 1990s and are approaching 1980s levels. They do not make the news because they do not have the Sein Feinn propaganda machine behind them and they have been largely ineffective in killing people (although marginally more effective in maiming). As ever though, with trial and error they are gaining in competence.

[Rex Brynen]

Of note, although it rarely makes the news, is that the levels of terrorist violence in Northern Ireland have (IMHO) now passed those seen in the 1990s and are approaching 1080s levels.

1080s levels? Bloody Vikings!

[davidbfpo]

An interesting viewpoint by General Sir Michael Rose, a soldier who served in Londonderry on the day and rose to fame later, notably in Bosnia:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...criminals.html

Will Saville like enquiries re-appear in today's campaigns?

Nor should the effect of the Saville Inquiry on the British soldiers fighting today in Afghanistan be underestimated. Some will be the sons and even grandsons of those being accused of unlawful killing.

Even if they are not, they will be asking themselves whether each time they open fire on the Taliban, they might not, in some distant future inquiry, be asked to justify their actions. This is no way to go to war.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...#ixzz0qy1gnPm5

I have not read today's news, but do recall watching from the "mainland" how Northern Ireland plunged into violence after 'Bloody Sunday'.

The points made in a pre-publication article in The Spectator strike a chord with me:

(On Pg.5) In 1999, in an otherwise unwise Radio 4 interview, Colonel Wilford, the man who commanded 1 Para that day, gave vent to the feelings of many. ‘I have to ask,’ he said, ‘what about Bloody Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and every day of the week?

‘What about Bloody Omagh? What about Bloody Warrenpoint, Enniskillen, Hyde Park, or Bloody Aldershot and Brighton — bloody everything the IRA have ever touched.’

It is a good question. Colonel Wilford, like his men, lives in his retirement wondering whether the law will come for him. Yet one other commander, a paramilitary commander, has, like certain other men who fired that day, never looked back and shares none of the worries of British soldiers. The man I watched grandstanding in the Guildhall of Londonderry is too busy being Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. And nobody, but nobody, would order an inquiry into him. Or any of the other bloody things he and his bloody movement ever bloody touched. This is one-directional justice. Each individual will have to work out for themselves whether this constitutes the mature behaviour of a democracy at its very best, or a wasteful exercise in appeasing a political sympathy that has been appeased for too many years.

Link:http://newstaging.spectator.widearea...y-sunday.thtml

[Rex Brynen]

Nor should the effect of the Saville Inquiry on the British soldiers fighting today in Afghanistan be underestimated. Some will be the sons and even grandsons of those being accused of unlawful killing.

Even if they are not, they will be asking themselves whether each time they open fire on the Taliban, they might not, in some distant future inquiry, be asked to justify their actions. This is no way to go to war.

Of course, it might also be argued that had some of the paras "thought twice" in 1972 some of the Troubles might have been a little less troubled.

[Ken White]

which is why it's a really bad idea to send them if you do not want want dead bodies at the destination...

This is not really a threadjacking, it is a reminder that using general purpose forces as police is fraught with potential problems. The Paras were sent, they did what Paras do and they pay the price while the politicians that caused them to be there left for comfortable retirements with no after effects.

Still, it's all a matter of the right tool for the job because in some circumstances they can be helpful:

[JJackson]

Having spent a few hours reading the report – obviously only a small part – I hope the current generation of soldiers do take note. More importantly I hope it is read by lots of politicians and they take Ken’s point that these people were not cut-out for crowd control. They ignored their rules of engagement and, after the event, closed ranks and lied about what had occurred. Never having served I do not know if this was just poor unit discipline or is it part of esprit the corp that you lie to cover for your mates. The report also looked at the arrests and came to the conclusion that the abuse of prisoners was institutionalised rather than specific to this incident. If this is how the troops were treating the locals it is little wonder it took so long to resolve. If it is typical, and ongoing in Afghanistan and elsewhere, then we will never win militarily or by COIN and should withdraw before we do any more harm.
At £190 million this has not been a cheap exercise but if we actually learn something form it I am happy to have contributed to it in a small way.

[JMA]

which is why it's a really bad idea to send them if you do not want want dead bodies at the destination...

This is not really a threadjacking, it is a reminder that using general purpose forces as police is fraught with potential problems. The Paras were sent, they did what Paras do and they pay the price while the politicians that caused them to be there left for comfortable retirements with no after effects.

Still, it's all a matter of the right tool for the job because in some circumstances they can be helpful:

I agree with you on this, Ken

[JMA]

Unsurprisingly the strong feeling in my quarters is that it would be duplicitous at best if soldiers were prosecuted for past wrongs committed in the heat of the moment, when under the Good Friday Agreement terrorists received an amnesty.

Yes the Good Friday Agreement. You are saying it was not a general amnesty?

It will be interesting to see what the various Republican agendas in Northern Ireland will make from this.

Hay?

Of note, although it rarely makes the news, is that the levels of terrorist violence in Northern Ireland have (IMHO) now passed those seen in the 1990s and are approaching 1980s levels. They do not make the news because they do not have the Sein Feinn propaganda machine behind them and they have been largely ineffective in killing people (although marginally more effective in maiming). As ever though, with trial and error they are gaining in competence.

Very interesting... and whom may I ask is behind this?

[Red Rat]

Yes the Good Friday Agreement. You are saying it was not a general amnesty?

I don't think so. Under the terms terrorists convicted get an early (immediate) release, so we can still prosecute terrorists for past crimes but it is not really achieving anything. Of course if the cease-fire goes then the early release goes. The Good Friday Agreement (GFA) does not apply to members of the security forces.

Very interesting... and whom may I ask is behind this?

CIRA and RIRA, the 'Continuity' and 'Real' IRA respectively. Some hardline Republicans were against the GFA and went their own way, they have got better over the years and seem to be tapping into some PIRA expertise and stores. No strong polical support, but enough bored youths in Counties South Armargh, Fermanagh and Derry to keep things ticking over.

[JMA]

Unsurprisingly the strong feeling in my quarters is that it would be duplicitous at best if soldiers were prosecuted for past wrongs committed in the heat of the moment, when under the Good Friday Agreement terrorists received an amnesty.

It depends doesn't it. Which government department would be doing the prosecuting? Now if it were up to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office...