Northern Ireland (merged thread)

[Rex Brynen]

Of note, although it rarely makes the news, is that the levels of terrorist violence in Northern Ireland have (IMHO) now passed those seen in the 1990s and are approaching 1080s levels.

1080s levels? Bloody Vikings!

[davidbfpo]

An interesting viewpoint by General Sir Michael Rose, a soldier who served in Londonderry on the day and rose to fame later, notably in Bosnia:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...criminals.html

Will Saville like enquiries re-appear in today's campaigns?

Nor should the effect of the Saville Inquiry on the British soldiers fighting today in Afghanistan be underestimated. Some will be the sons and even grandsons of those being accused of unlawful killing.

Even if they are not, they will be asking themselves whether each time they open fire on the Taliban, they might not, in some distant future inquiry, be asked to justify their actions. This is no way to go to war.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...#ixzz0qy1gnPm5

I have not read today's news, but do recall watching from the "mainland" how Northern Ireland plunged into violence after 'Bloody Sunday'.

The points made in a pre-publication article in The Spectator strike a chord with me:

(On Pg.5) In 1999, in an otherwise unwise Radio 4 interview, Colonel Wilford, the man who commanded 1 Para that day, gave vent to the feelings of many. ‘I have to ask,’ he said, ‘what about Bloody Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and every day of the week?

‘What about Bloody Omagh? What about Bloody Warrenpoint, Enniskillen, Hyde Park, or Bloody Aldershot and Brighton — bloody everything the IRA have ever touched.’

It is a good question. Colonel Wilford, like his men, lives in his retirement wondering whether the law will come for him. Yet one other commander, a paramilitary commander, has, like certain other men who fired that day, never looked back and shares none of the worries of British soldiers. The man I watched grandstanding in the Guildhall of Londonderry is too busy being Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. And nobody, but nobody, would order an inquiry into him. Or any of the other bloody things he and his bloody movement ever bloody touched. This is one-directional justice. Each individual will have to work out for themselves whether this constitutes the mature behaviour of a democracy at its very best, or a wasteful exercise in appeasing a political sympathy that has been appeased for too many years.

Link:http://newstaging.spectator.widearea...y-sunday.thtml

[Rex Brynen]

Nor should the effect of the Saville Inquiry on the British soldiers fighting today in Afghanistan be underestimated. Some will be the sons and even grandsons of those being accused of unlawful killing.

Even if they are not, they will be asking themselves whether each time they open fire on the Taliban, they might not, in some distant future inquiry, be asked to justify their actions. This is no way to go to war.

Of course, it might also be argued that had some of the paras "thought twice" in 1972 some of the Troubles might have been a little less troubled.

[Ken White]

which is why it's a really bad idea to send them if you do not want want dead bodies at the destination...

This is not really a threadjacking, it is a reminder that using general purpose forces as police is fraught with potential problems. The Paras were sent, they did what Paras do and they pay the price while the politicians that caused them to be there left for comfortable retirements with no after effects.

Still, it's all a matter of the right tool for the job because in some circumstances they can be helpful:

[JJackson]

Having spent a few hours reading the report – obviously only a small part – I hope the current generation of soldiers do take note. More importantly I hope it is read by lots of politicians and they take Ken’s point that these people were not cut-out for crowd control. They ignored their rules of engagement and, after the event, closed ranks and lied about what had occurred. Never having served I do not know if this was just poor unit discipline or is it part of esprit the corp that you lie to cover for your mates. The report also looked at the arrests and came to the conclusion that the abuse of prisoners was institutionalised rather than specific to this incident. If this is how the troops were treating the locals it is little wonder it took so long to resolve. If it is typical, and ongoing in Afghanistan and elsewhere, then we will never win militarily or by COIN and should withdraw before we do any more harm.
At £190 million this has not been a cheap exercise but if we actually learn something form it I am happy to have contributed to it in a small way.

[jmm99]

From Time, Northern Ireland: Bloody Sunday Inquiry Says Victims Were Innocent (15 Jun 2010):

From near the end:

But the latest Bloody Sunday inquiry is not without its critics. Intended to only last a year, it took 12 to complete, at a cost of almost $295 million. Most of the money was spent on lawyers' fees. As Northern Ireland seeks to move on from decades of sectarian conflict, many have also questioned the merit of revisiting such a painful episode of its past.

Barf.

Mike

[JJackson]

It was needed. The actions of our troops were bad enough but the government of the day then rubbed salt in to the wound with the Widgery Inquiry. This one may have been costly and time consuming but reading it I have little doubt it is an honest attempt to find out what happened - which the first report was not. This is a dark episode in our history and Catholic community deserved the apology and a truthful report. The rest of us need the honesty if we do not want to risk simmering resentments leading to new round of 'the troubles'.

[William F. Owen]

Having spent a few hours reading the report – obviously only a small part – I hope the current generation of soldiers do take note.

I do not know about the current generation, but back in the 1980's those of us serving basically knew the whole story. We knew this was how NOT to do it, and most of the sentiment was "why shoot un-armed Civvies running away? That's not hard."

They ignored their rules of engagement and, after the event, closed ranks and lied about what had occurred. Never having served I do not know if this was just poor unit discipline or is it part of esprit the corp that you lie to cover for your mates.

I have not read the report, but it has again been common knowledge within the British Army that the Battalion concerned "had issues" concerning discipline - otherwise what happened simply would not have occurred.
Yes, you do lie to cover your mates. It's not right, but some time in uniform is pretty essential to understanding why.

If it is typical, and ongoing in Afghanistan and elsewhere, then we will never win militarily or by COIN and should withdraw before we do any more harm.

Based on what I know, I do not believe it is, in theatre at the moment, but for where it has gone wrong, look at the British Army prisoner abuse allegations in Iraq.
Prisoner handling is a specialist skill. It needs training.

[JMA]

which is why it's a really bad idea to send them if you do not want want dead bodies at the destination...

This is not really a threadjacking, it is a reminder that using general purpose forces as police is fraught with potential problems. The Paras were sent, they did what Paras do and they pay the price while the politicians that caused them to be there left for comfortable retirements with no after effects.

Still, it's all a matter of the right tool for the job because in some circumstances they can be helpful:

I agree with you on this, Ken

[jmm99]

once upon a time, in 1967 in Detroit, the Paras were called in, showed professionalism, coolness and restraint - an outstanding performance for a non-gendarmerie unit. But, those Paras had one Ken White among them - so, all is explained.

Regards

Mike

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PS: Loved the 82nd Airborne poster, which is from the Battle of the Bulge for anyone who doesn't know the story. The 82nd and the 30ID (my dad's division) were tasked to box in the German advance in the northwest part of the salient - 82nd on west, 30ID on north.

Stavelot 1-117 RIP.jpg

I have a nonagenarian client who was with the 82nd there. He still is lively and puts the make on my paralegal when he comes in. As you say, Paras do what Paras do.

[Pete]

Bloody Sunday reminds me in some respects of the Kent State incident in 1969, when the Ohio National Guard opened fire during a disturbance on the university campus during protests against the U.S. incursion into Cambodia. All it takes is for one guy to open fire on a crowd and then have others join in to produce lots of casualties during a very brief period. The missteps or bad judgement of one side at a civil disturbance does not necessarily imply that virtue is on the other. If I recall correctly Army training for responding to civil disturbances, particularly regarding the loading of weapons, was said to have been revamped after Kent State.