Northern Ireland (merged thread)

[davidbfpo]

There is quite a lot in the public domain on 14 Intell Company and it's reported successor in Baghdad. On my bookshelf are four books that help:

'Ten Thirty Three: The Inside Story of Britain's Secret Killing Machine in Northern Ireland', by Nicholas Davies (Pub.Mainstream 1999) - writer is a journalist who fought a court case before publishing

'Fishers of Men' by Rob Lewis (Pub.Hodder & Stoughton 1999) - which I recall some view as an officially approved ex-members account

'Bandit Country; The IRA & South Armagh' by Toby Harnden (Pub.Coronet 1999) - general account of how the tide changed

'Shadows: Inside Northern Ireland's Special Branch' by Alan Barker (Pub. Mainstream 2004) - by ex-RUC SB officer arrested before publication, on the police's intelligence arm

More current and perplexing is the report on some RUC SB agent handling and murders, by the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman (numerous Google hits).

Happy reading,

Davidbfpo

[bismark17]

Thanks for the post! I don't have a single one of those on my shelf. I did find it interesting that my copy of, Big Boys Rules, came from a used bookstore in Hereford....I have, The Operator and one written by a former female member but can't remember the title. Ok...the super bowl half time show is over so I can get back to the game....

[Mickey O'Neill]

I would sugges the following for a broad context while of course keeping open a copy of Kitson's "Low Intensity Operations: Subversion, Insurgency and Peacekeeping " as see how it applied itself to Ireland and the British state.

Is Mise le Meas
Mickey




Paths to a Settlement in Northern Ireland (Ulster Editions and Monographs) by Sean Farren, Robert F. Mulvihill

Ireland and Empire: Colonial Legacies in Irish History and Culture by Stephen Howe

Anti-Catholicism in Northern Ireland, 1600-1998: The Mote and the Beam
by John D. Brewer, Gareth I.
Higgins


The IRA, 1968-2000 (Cass Series on
Political Violence, 7) by J. Bowyer Bell

The Secret Army, J Boyer Bell

On the Blanket: The Inside Story of the IRA Prisoners' "Dirty" Protest by Tim Pat Coogan

The Irish War: The Hidden Conflict between the IRA and British

Intelligence
by Tony Geraghty

Contact
by A. F. N Clarke

The Dirty War - by Martin Dillon

[wm]

Saw this BBC on line story

The British Army's emergency operation in Northern Ireland comes to an end at midnight on Tuesday after 38 years.

The link is here

. . .And folks in the the US are getting antsy after only 6 years in AF and 4 in IZ.

[tequila]

Operation Banner is the Army's longest continuous campaign in its history with more than 300,000 personnel serving and 763 directly killed by paramilitaries.

The intensity and pace of operations is an order of magnitude lower. The monthly KIA average in Northern Ireland was 1.67, for instance. The total number of people, civilians and combatants included, killed in NI over a thirty-year period is under 4,000 --- that would be a decent two-month stretch in Iraq.

[wm]

The intensity and pace of operations is an order of magnitude lower. The monthly KIA average in Northern Ireland was 1.67, for instance. The total number of people, civilians and combatants included, killed in NI over a thirty-year period is under 4,000 --- that would be a decent two-month stretch in Iraq.

Your point about the order of magnitude is true, in absolute terms. However, I suspect that in relative terms (size of forces engaged, total populations, etc), the impact may be more comparable. Also, I suspect that using a monthly KIA average is misleading. Were one to plot British Army deaths over the 38 years, it would probably show a curve skewed to the left (i.e., many more deaths early on in the 38 years).

[Granite_State]

Your point about the order of magnitude is true, in absolute terms. However, I suspect that in relative terms (size of forces engaged, total populations, etc), the impact may be more comparable. Also, I suspect that using a monthly KIA average is misleading. Were one to plot British Army deaths over the 38 years, it would probably show a curve skewed to the left (i.e., many more deaths early on in the 38 years).

I'm sure you're right, but I still question what kind of value Northern Ireland holds in looking at Iraq. Fighting a terrorist group with sometimes barely 100 active members (Provisional IRA), an hour's flight from your capital, versus counter-insurgency/sectarian peace-keeping with 150,000 troops thousands of miles from home? Doesn't seem like much to draw on there, in a strategic sense anyway.

[tequila]

Your point about the order of magnitude is true, in absolute terms. However, I suspect that in relative terms (size of forces engaged, total populations, etc), the impact may be more comparable. Also, I suspect that using a monthly KIA average is misleading. Were one to plot British Army deaths over the 38 years, it would probably show a curve skewed to the left (i.e., many more deaths early on in the 38 years).

This is possibly true, but still I think Iraq represents a massively different sort of fight. The worst year in NI for the British was 1972, when 149 soldiers were killed out of a force of 30k or so. No other year comes close to this in NI, and this still represents a casualty rate below a similar year for the U.S. in Iraq.

Moreover, you never saw anything like this in Northern Ireland. Can you imagine 500-lb. bombs hitting snipers in Derry or British tanks firing main gun rounds in Belfast? Combat simply was never at that high of a level. The horrific Omagh bombing that finally put an end to violent Republicanism killed 29 people. 58 Iraqis were killed yesterday, pretty much without any news coverage at all because of the soccer win. The level of violence, both against U.S. forces and within the Iraqi population, is vastly different. The best evidence, beyond the daily body count, is in the size of refugee flows. AFAIK there never was any significant mass refugee flow out of NI. Compare that to over 4m Iraqi displaced, 2m outside of the country.

[wm]

This is possibly true, but still I think Iraq represents a massively different sort of fight. The worst year in NI for the British was 1972, when 149 soldiers were killed out of a force of 30k or so. No other year comes close to this in NI, and this still represents a casualty rate below a similar year for the U.S. in Iraq.

Moreover, you never saw anything like this in Northern Ireland. Can you imagine 500-lb. bombs hitting snipers in Derry or British tanks firing main gun rounds in Belfast? Combat simply was never at that high of a level. The horrific Omagh bombing that finally put an end to violent Republicanism killed 29 people. 58 Iraqis were killed yesterday, pretty much without any news coverage at all because of the soccer win. The level of violence, both against U.S. forces and within the Iraqi population, is vastly different. The best evidence, beyond the daily body count, is in the size of refugee flows. AFAIK there never was any significant mass refugee flow out of NI. Compare that to over 4m Iraqi displaced, 2m outside of the country.

Again, no disputing your points. But, the devastation in SWA is half a world away, and the co-citizens of the military intervention force being killed in SWA tend to be contract help and reporters who largely have chosen to be there in order to fatten their wallets or their prestige--a freely chosen risk. In NI, everyday British citizens were unwilling targets in a location just a short boat ride or airplane flight away from the big island.
I also do not think that the "vote with your feet" position that results in refugees is germane in NI--most of the folks there were too committed to a lifestyle choice to be able to pick up and run to escape the violence.

[Rex Brynen]

After 12 years and thousands of witness statements, the official "Bloody Sunday" inquiry report was issued today--you'll find the full text here.

According to the BBC report of PM Cameron's statement to the House of Commons:

Bloody Sunday killings 'unjustified and unjustifiable'
Page last updated at 16:06 GMT, Tuesday, 15 June 2010 17:06 UK


The Bloody Sunday killings were unjustified and unjustifiable, the Prime Minster has said.

Thirteen marchers were shot dead on 30 January 1972 in Londonderry when British paratroopers opened fire on crowds at a civil rights demonstration.

...

Fourteen others were wounded, one later died. The Saville Report is heavily critical of the Army and found that soldiers fired the first shot.

Prime Minister David Cameron said he was "deeply sorry".

He said that the findings of the Saville Report were "shocking".

A huge cheer erupted in Guildhall Square in Derry as Mr Cameron delivered the findings which unequivocally blamed the Army for one of the most controversial days in Northern Ireland's history.

...

Mr Cameron said:

• No warning had been given to any civilians before the soldiers opened fire
• None of the soldiers fired in response to attacks by petrol bombers or stone throwers
• Some of those killed or injured were clearly fleeing or going to help those injured or dying
• None of the casualties was posing a threat or doing anything that would justify their shooting
• Many of the soldiers lied about their actions
• The events of Bloody Sunday were not premeditated
• Northern Ireland's Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness, Sinn Fein, was present at the time of the violence and "probably armed with a submachine gun" but did not engage in "any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire"

The head of the Army, General Sir David Richards, said he fully supported Mr Cameron's apology.

...

[JMA]

The sad follow on from here is that:

Bloody Sunday: Soldiers may face prosecution over 'unjustifiable' killings

I agree with the following quote from the news article:

Lord Maginnis of Drumglas, an Ulster Unionist peer, said the report was "one-eyed" in its emphasis on just 14 of the 180 violent deaths in the province in the preceding year.

As per my comments on Algeria... why single out these acts?

By all means prosecute these soldiers if there is a case to answer but lets see the next inquiry into the other deaths begin immediately.

[Red Rat]

Unsurprisingly the strong feeling in my quarters is that it would be duplicitous at best if soldiers were prosecuted for past wrongs committed in the heat of the moment, when under the Good Friday Agreement terrorists received an amnesty.

It will be interesting to see what the various Republican agendas in Northern Ireland will make from this.

Of note, although it rarely makes the news, is that the levels of terrorist violence in Northern Ireland have (IMHO) now passed those seen in the 1990s and are approaching 1980s levels. They do not make the news because they do not have the Sein Feinn propaganda machine behind them and they have been largely ineffective in killing people (although marginally more effective in maiming). As ever though, with trial and error they are gaining in competence.

[Rex Brynen]

Of note, although it rarely makes the news, is that the levels of terrorist violence in Northern Ireland have (IMHO) now passed those seen in the 1990s and are approaching 1080s levels.

1080s levels? Bloody Vikings!

[JMA]

Unsurprisingly the strong feeling in my quarters is that it would be duplicitous at best if soldiers were prosecuted for past wrongs committed in the heat of the moment, when under the Good Friday Agreement terrorists received an amnesty.

Yes the Good Friday Agreement. You are saying it was not a general amnesty?

It will be interesting to see what the various Republican agendas in Northern Ireland will make from this.

Hay?

Of note, although it rarely makes the news, is that the levels of terrorist violence in Northern Ireland have (IMHO) now passed those seen in the 1990s and are approaching 1980s levels. They do not make the news because they do not have the Sein Feinn propaganda machine behind them and they have been largely ineffective in killing people (although marginally more effective in maiming). As ever though, with trial and error they are gaining in competence.

Very interesting... and whom may I ask is behind this?

[JMA]

Unsurprisingly the strong feeling in my quarters is that it would be duplicitous at best if soldiers were prosecuted for past wrongs committed in the heat of the moment, when under the Good Friday Agreement terrorists received an amnesty.

It depends doesn't it. Which government department would be doing the prosecuting? Now if it were up to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office...

[davidbfpo]

Peter Taylor, a BBC journalist has made a hundred films on 'The Troubles' in Northern Ireland and now his latest is available, which is a personal assessment of who really 'won the war', with "talking heads" and some grim reminders of what the 'troubles' meant.

I assume it is available beyond the UK, oddly - again - it was not shown on the 'mainland'. There is an outline, but no film on:http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04jy8hf

There is a full film via YouTube, with an age restriction to fulfill before viewing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhPMb0W9kJE

It is fascinating to contrast the views of those involved then and now, whether they are paramilitaries or politicians. Particularly poignant are the convicted murderers who now say it was not worth it.

There is a linked series of film clips on 'What turns a civilian into a paramilitary', which are not included in the main film and it does not appear on YouTube.

As Peter observes rolvs have been reversed for the Protestant, loyalist working class; now their flag waving, bands playing marches are stopped by the police - sometimes with violence.

This was a stand-alone thread and was merged to here.

Talking to terrorists is a political option, starting covertly and is the theme of a new book by Jonathan Powell, Tony Blair's assistant 'Talking to Terrorists: How to End Armed Conflicts'. I've only seen one review in The Spectator, entitled Dirty dealing; it is nevertheless even-handed:http://www.spectator.co.uk/books/9328482/dirty-dealing/

[davidbfpo]

A detailed report on Tony Blair's reluctant, delayed appearance last week before a House of Commons committee, which is reviewing the "On The Run" or "Comfort" letters - which has enabled suspects to escape prosecution:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-30776891

One of the most controversial elements of the Good Friday Agreement was the early release scheme for hundreds of republican and loyalist prisoners but it crucially did not deal with so-called On the Runs. After negotiations between the government and Sinn Fin, Tony Blair gave Gerry Adams a personal assurance, an undertaking, that he would take steps to resolve this issue.
His government then set up a scheme whereby Sinn Fin could submit the names of individuals who wanted to check their legal status, to see if it was safe for them to return to Northern Ireland or if they could face arrest or questioning if they did so.

[davidbfpo]

In a somewhat bitter and very direct commentary Norman Tebbitt argues the Good Friday Agreement was a betrayal, as indicated by the sub-title:

By letting up with the IRA/Sinn Fein on the verge of defeat, they undid years of good work by the intelligence services

He writes, as a taster:

The truth is that they knew that the IRA – all the way up to the Army Council on which they sat to plan and authorise the bombings, tortures and killings – had been penetrated by British intelligence, and none of them could any longer trust another.

[davidbfpo]

Compared to the volumes of commentary and publicity at times for the violent Republicans, notably the Provisional IRA, since the Good Friday Agreement, there has been little written about the "Loyalist" paramilitaries.

Arraon Edwards in his blog UVF: Behind the Mask has a series of artricles that provide an explanation. in particular their role in reconciliation:https://uvfbook.wordpress.com/author/aaronedwards2012/

[davidbfpo]

The August 1998 bombing in Omagh's main street is remembered for the twenty-eight deaths and injuries as the Real IRA's attempt to derail the Good Friday Agreement. Shortly after Prime Minister Tony Blair vowed those reponsible would face justice.

The criminal investigation meandered along, it is known to rely on forensic evidence and cell phone analysis. Frustrated with the slow pace a private prosecution was launched, which found several men liable in 2009 and re-affirmed in an appeal in 2013.

More details here:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...h-bombing.html

Now a criminal court hearing is expected next month, for one man, Seamus Daly, who maintains he is innocent:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-go-ahead.html