Turn off the generators, put every American FOB, JCOP, embassy, etc on the local grid. We could solve this in a month
Militias Seizing Control of Iraqi Electricity Grid
Militias Seizing Control of Iraqi Electricity Grid - NYTIMES, 23 Aug.
Armed groups increasingly control the antiquated switching stations that channel electricity around Iraq, the electricity minister said Wednesday.
That is dividing the national grid into fiefs that, he said, often refuse to share electricity generated locally with Baghdad and other power-starved areas in the center of Iraq.
The development adds to existing electricity problems in Baghdad, which has been struggling to provide power for more than a few hours a day because insurgents regularly blow up the towers that carry power lines into the city.
The government lost the ability to control the grid centrally after the American-led invasion in 2003, when looters destroyed electrical dispatch centers, the minister, Karim Wahid, said in a news briefing attended also by United States military officials.
The briefing had been intended, in part, to highlight successes in the American-financed reconstruction program here.
But it took an unexpected turn when Mr. Wahid, a highly respected technocrat and longtime ministry official, began taking questions from Arab and Western journalists.
Because of the lack of functioning dispatch centers, Mr. Wahid said, ministry officials have been trying to control the flow of electricity from huge power plants in the south, north and west by calling local officials there and ordering them to physically flip switches.
But the officials refuse to follow those orders when the armed groups threaten their lives, he said, and the often isolated stations are abandoned at night and easily manipulated by whatever group controls the area.
This kind of manipulation can cause the entire system to collapse and bring nationwide blackouts, sometimes seriously damaging the generating plants that the United States has paid millions of dollars to repair.
Such a collapse took place just last week, the State Department reported in a recent assessment, which said the provinces’ failure to share electricity resulted in a “massive loss of power” on Aug. 14 at 5 p.m. ...
One Step Solution to Solve the Power Problem in Iraq.
Turn off the generators, put every American FOB, JCOP, embassy, etc on the local grid. We could solve this in a month
Tony, although I kind of agree, would that not cut off the locals from generated electricity ? If it did, we would have far more problems than insurgents, we would have some real helpless people and a potential refugee crisis.Originally Posted by Anthony Hoh
We would also gain far more enemies than we already have.
Having worked high tension and Engineering, I'm interested in just what cutting off the grid entails.
Regards, Stan
A little clarity
Stan,
I meant that we should take "our" infrastructure and place it onto the local power grid. To my knowledge we do not produce electricity for the general populace, "our" power mainly derives from portable powers sources. Generally huge GE travel trailers and contractors that we pay like rock stars to operate them provide electricity to our bases. While most Iraqis live with less that 6-8 hours of power a day, we run 24/7. Obviously, I am not suggesting we assume operational risk by shutting down our TOC’s and turning off our radios immediately. However leaving local governance to solve the problem has resulted in the article tequila has posted. If we make an earnest move to operate off of the local power grid, it would spur us to tackle the associated security issues along with the host nation forces. Leaving this to be solved by the current Iraqi government alone is the right answer. However its not getting better its getting worse. IMO American ingenuity will take over and find a way to get it straight, and by the way it would go a long way to help the target audience the Iraqi people.
Tony
Electricity 101
Tony,
I don’t like that idea, but I’ll continue my rant first !
Actually, the ‘huge generators’ and local power stations are merely a stable power source, but the National Grid is the back-up for any/all instances such as surges, outages, etc.
Let’s not confuse the ‘National Grid’ for a Local Power Station, Sub Station or Distribution Grid.
Although we can attribute some of the power problems to insurgent sabotage, there’s more to it than that. High electrical demands, fuel shortages and worse yet, local power stations attached to the National Grid ‘pulling the plug’. The local stations are trying to keep their respective towns with power, but the National Grid is demanding (if you will) more. The System was designed to work together, not dump half and hope for the best.
I’ve lived in Sub-Sahara for over 10 years with less than 6 to 8 hours of power a day. It’s no big deal. Those people have been doing this since before you were born, and they’ll continue to. Their National Grid was on the brink of collapse without insurgency. This is not rumor, rather fact.
I’ve read far too many posts herein discussing the already stretched Army. Are we suggesting the Corps of Engineers come in and run the National Grid and run around restoring power from the local power stations, so the grid will remain stable ?
Tony, it may be, but it isn’t happening. Hence my concern over mega death and a full blown refugee crisis in the making.
Correct, 1,000 Percent. There’s no ingenuity...it’s basic electrical theory, low voltage and high tension, been around since Christ was a Corporal.
Regards, Stan
Last edited by Stan; 08-23-2007 at 05:09 PM.
Grid is Grid
Ok Stan,
Obviously you have an extensive knowledge of electricity, an forgive my lack of expertise, but would not the national grid be comprised of these local power stations and sub stations that you referred to?
For your reference:
http://www.energymanagertraining.com...ower_Grids.htm
Whether it is a transmission substation, power plant, or high voltage transmission line they are interconnected. If they are not interconnected than I believe that it reinforces my point that we should get involved.
Ok how does that argue against us not getting involved?
I feel this deals with perception, if I had more electricty under a previous regieme and less now. What is wrong now.
Yes absolutly, let them watch T.V. sit in air conditionaing and "chill" (pardon the pun) out.
I think we could agree the refugee crisis is made, especially if we asked Iran, Jordan, or Syria. Perhaps restoring basic services could be a way to entice people back home.
Never knew Jesus Christ to be a Corporal.
Best to you as well,
Tony
I Don't Get it anymore
Hey Tony,
Sorry, took a break for Dinner
Before I answer your questions below, I'd now like a tad bit of clarity from your first post.
Which was:
Sorry, but I may have misunderstood what exactly you were saying, as it turns out you are now agreeing with me (to get involved and not shut the National Grid down.
Err, what ?
I thought I just said that ? But, you're indeed correct, the system was designed to work with everything attached, if you will.
Sorry, I didn't get the impression you were advocating direct involvement, rather a shut down. My Bad !
Well, not only perception, they've had power failures since the mid-80s. OK, it's not fair to say that they are 'adjusted' and no longer need help.
I believe you sit next to an individual who can tell you about Operation Support Hope(less). Restoration of 'normal' and just how fast those 800,000 returned.
Forgive me, that's a very old Army expression from the early 70s that I refuse to give up. There's plenty more where that came from
Take care, Stan
I dont want to beat the horse but here I go...
What in my first post says shut down the national grid? I said we need to turn the generators off. We (a.k.a Army) primarily run off of generator power. My point is when we get off of generator power, get involved with the local populace and fix the nation power grid (however you/we/I choose to define its contents)
Stan,
I honestly believe that will never happen until we get off of generator power and "hook up" to the national grid. Its too easy to look at the power issue as an Iraqi problem. When we make it our problem it would get solved faster. I agree the Army and probably the Corp of Engineers specfically is overtasked. Lets think about that, our Bazillon dollar embassay,MWR swimming pools, McDonalds, and Baskin Robins 31 flavors could be out in the back drop for a bit. To solve this issue.
Dont you think?
A Tad Clearer this time 'round but,
Tony,
I kind of see your point now, but placing a burden or hardship on 'we the Army' may not directly lead to more involvement in repairing the National Grid.
I see our force's morale levels as low, and would not want to strain that situation more than it already is.
Perhaps better to use those generators to replicate missing local power stations (which can be attached anywhere along the grid). But then, you'll need several more generators and also need to stand watch over them. If the situation wasn't already bad enough, the hydroelectric dam is not exactly in good shape and restoring the local stations to the grid may be a wee bit late.
I find it more a question of priority and tasking. You'd be right, once the CO no longer has A/C at the end of his duty day, he/she will make electricity a priority
The Embassy is a sore point for me and for many that have had to serve 'under' State and listen to the constant whining, with or without electricity.
As for McD's and Baskin Robins, I would have to wonder if their removal now (should have never been there in the first place) would only add to the stressful and long tours our folks are enduring.
Callin' it an evening.
Regards, Stan
The Solution
Having some knowledge in this field, let me weigh in. Grids are interconnected - that is their design. In order to prevent a ground fault in one part of the grid from effecting the entire grid, there is protective relaying that will open breakers on undervoltage or overcurrent conditions so that large pieces of the system may still function. In the U.S., for instance, electric utilities have dozens of interconnection points, with metering to detect which way current if flowing, and chargebacks are sent at the end of the month. This way, if a Unit (Coal or Nuclear) trips off line, other parts of the system pick up the load. That way, power is "clean" (i.e., fairly close to 60 cycles per second, so that electronic things are not effected).
This is NOT the problem being discussed. Further, it doesn't really matter whether we take the FOBs off of our own power or not. Providing temporary security for a substation will only mask the problem or temporarily put a band aid on it. The problem is not the grid. All electrical grids are vulnerable and susceptible.
The solution is to go after the problem. Basra is lost to three competing Shi'a factions because coalition forces have in large part left the JAM alone. As long as we leave unrully, violent, arrogant teenagers to run around like Mafiosi in Iraq, taking anything they want and shooting anyone they want and extorting for anything they want, the grid will be vulnerable.
Again, the problem is not the electrical grid. It is the ones who target that grid.
http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/...se-of-the-jam/
Electicity in Baghdad
The NYT article on the "national" grid in Iraq really misses the mark. The electric grid was broken before the 2003 invasion. Broken by Saddam's neglect. Twelve years of UN supported sanctions (1991-2003) and four years of insurgent warfare have eliminated a national grid. Iraqis are use to the depravity of nearly 20 years of doing without. So the electricity problem has effectively been tansferred to the individual Iraqi. Their solution is generators to provide limited power. But that only moved the problem to another power requirements. Whether it's the national power plants or small generators, both require fuel. Generators require gasoline and that has greatly expanded the demand for gas. This of course creates an excess demand for gas because demand exceeds supply. Black market gas has become the norm in Baghdad.
The power system for a modernized country links all essential national and regional essential services to one another. It's one of the system of systems in a modernized country that interconnections with all the other systems including water, sewage, hospitals, emergency services, schools, etc. The magnitude of a failed electrical grid is far reaching and magnifies the suffering of Iraqi citizens and reinforces insurgent propaganda of a weak or failed national government.
All good points
Well said Patriot !
The electricity problems are but the first of some greater and more serious soon to follow.
Once the water and sewage services completely stop, the hospitals will have a good idea of what a cholera epidemic looks and smells like.
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