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Thread: Officer Retention

  1. #81
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Urban Dictionary makes up for what youtube lacks...class

    LA is a trailer Park, Tom !

    Goesh is on-line, and this will only get better
    Now Stan,

    That would depend on how low you want to get in lower Louisiana. Far enough and they either grow stilts or start to float.

    WM,

    The brave Redneck and courageous Cajun always defends his home by having his wife ride out the storm. Big wimmen make great trailer weights for tornadoes and hurricane winds. When it floods, well they're great floats.

    Uh ohhh I better stop

    Tom

  2. #82
    Council Member Adam L's Avatar
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    [/quote] Big wimmen make great trailer weights for tornadoes and hurricane winds. [/quote]

    I thought that was what the 302 engine block on the front lawn was for? LOL

  3. #83
    Council Member wm's Avatar
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    I thought that was what the 302 engine block on the front lawn was for? LOL
    You have so much yet to learn, Grasshopper. There is a great distinction between the use of a "yard car" and that of a "drivin' car."

  4. #84
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Default The A&O and RTK discussion

    Hi Folks,

    Coming from a place where snuff is meant to be only ingested after flipping ones lace shirt cuff back, I'm going to return to the A&O - RTK discussion because I think there are some very good points in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdaptAndOvercome View Post
    "I find your post interesting for a number of reasons. Given what I know about your background from your intro post, that you're going to get commissioned next year, and under the assumption that you are not prior service I have a few honest comments and observations. I say this, not to nit pick, but to enter into the honest and professional intellectual dialog that you infer is so lacking in the profession of arms."
    I am beginning to regret having made an introduction.
    Never regret coming on board - you may get hammered verbally (I know I have been a couple of times ), but you will certainly learn a lot about your chosen profession.

    One of the things I hope you learn from the way RTK has reacted to your posts is something that every professional has to learn - regardless of their profession: there is a distinct difference between professional "expert knowledge" (the way a group thinks about what it does) and professional "operational realities" (the way a group thinks about immediate tasks).

    Quote Originally Posted by AdaptAndOvercome View Post
    Consider the first paragraph of the five paragraph Operations Order (Enemy, terrain, weather, friendly forces). By describing socio-demographics as terrain the factors of OAKOC can be applied. For instance, how can the civilian populace be an obstacle, how can they be "key terrain," what benefits to they afford in terms of observation (reconnaissance), how can they affect mobility corridors and avenues of approach etc....?"
    This is problematic because we are defining the environment based on our standard operating procedures instead of the other way around. Why can't we change OAKOC or say that OAKOC can analyze demographics as well?
    Well, it may be a pain in the posterior for non-military folks like me, but so what? Every profession defines its environment by its own SOPs. One of the things that really intrigued me was that someone in a particular discipline could get the reputation as a "brilliant innovator" by taking something from another discipline and applying it in heir own. By having the varying SOPs, every discipline can get an advantage if (and only if ) they talk with each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdaptAndOvercome View Post
    "Do we discourage demographers, anthropologists, and other professionals from working with the military because we appear meddlesome, unwilling to respect the venerable terms used by the scholars of their discipline?"
    It was simply a suggestion for something we should investigate. Many people who teach at those institutions were in the military or have strong ties through family. What of everyone else?
    I think what discouragement there is comes not because of terminology - I believe that is more of an irritant - but from political and ideological stances within the academy. Honestly, of all of the professional groups I've been involved with, I find the military to be the lowest on the PC scale (loosely translated as "agree or scram").

    "I cannot undo what your previous educators, friends, parents, or guardians failed to do."
    RTK, believe me when I say "I feel your pain"! Teaching people to read, write and think at the undergraduate and post-graduate level, which is what a commissioned officer is, is something that should not have to happen. It highlights the travesty of an "educational system" that is more concerned with passing people than with teaching them. Since Selil made a reading recommendation, let me make one as well - Day of the Moron by H. Beam Piper. As a side note, back when I was doing my doctoral coursework I took a course in the Labour Process where I used the Piper story to illustrate my arguments. BTW, Labour Process Theory is very Marxist - read the story and you can guess how the prof in that course reacted .

    However, while we cannot undo what has happened in the past, I believe that we have a responsibility to attempt to counteract its worst effects. Can we teach people basic skills? Sure, even though it is a "waste" (in the sense of not the most efficient use of our time) of our time to do so. I think it may be more important for us to consider interim F's that highlight the problem to the student and send them off somewhere else for remedial work. As a side note, I have been known to work with "problem students" for 3-6 hours a week individually to get them up to speed - not a very efficient use of my time, but the changes in the student were reward enough for me.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  5. #85
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    Default We have a new OAKOC!

    Quote Originally Posted by AdaptAndOvercome View Post

    This is problematic because we are defining the environment based on our standard operating procedures instead of the other way around. Why can't we change OAKOC or say that OAKOC can analyze demographics as well?
    All,

    OAKOC has been amended with ASCOPE for human operations. You'll find it in FM 3-24. Para 3-19 and Appendix B beginning in para 10.

    Area
    Structures
    Capabilities
    Organizations
    People
    Events

    A class of it can be found here (AKO Files Link)

    It's being taught currently at the MI school and at COIN seminars near you ... and should be making its way into BOLC 2. ASCOPE is to COIN what OAKOC is to HIC. You use it to make your overlays.

    Also remember a lot of what you are taught in BOLC 1 is simply to develop your leadership and thinking for further education after commissioning. What you think the army is now and what the army actually is are two very different things - better and worse.
    Last edited by Cavguy; 09-12-2007 at 03:58 PM.
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
    Who is Cavguy?

  6. #86
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Default Darn Just When I found It...They Change It

    Here is Rand study of IPB for Urban Environments on page 66 it explains how to use OAKOC for population analysis. Now it is ASCOPE Oh well it is pretty interesting paper. The link is below.


    http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_r...007/MR1287.pdf

  7. #87
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Got an e-mail a couple hours ago. Here's the deal.

    3 year ADSO. 5 different options.

    1. $25K, $30K, $35K bonus depending on branch

    2. Graduate School

    3. Ranger School/DLI

    4. Functional Area/Branch of Choice

    5. Post of Choice.

    You pick one. Only one. It goes official tomorrow morning at 0730 EDT. I'll have my paperwork on my Squadron Commander's desk by 0735.
    Example is better than precept.

  8. #88
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    what is "ADSO" and Ranger School is a Bonus?
    Sam Liles
    Selil Blog
    Don't forget to duck Secret Squirrel
    The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
    All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    what is "ADSO" and Ranger School is a Bonus?
    Active Duty Service Obligation

  10. #90
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Where do I sign? That's better than my faculty contract!
    Sam Liles
    Selil Blog
    Don't forget to duck Secret Squirrel
    The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
    All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTK View Post
    Got an e-mail a couple hours ago. Here's the deal.

    3 year ADSO. 5 different options.

    1. $25K, $30K, $35K bonus depending on branch

    2. Graduate School

    3. Ranger School/DLI

    4. Functional Area/Branch of Choice

    5. Post of Choice.

    You pick one. Only one. It goes official tomorrow morning at 0730 EDT. I'll have my paperwork on my Squadron Commander's desk by 0735.
    A quick correction - Ranger School is only a 1 year ADSO and DLI is a 3:1 ADSO (based on the number of days for language training - a 365 day course would yield three years of ADSO).

  12. #92
    Council Member wm's Avatar
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    Default The Prior Letter to Field Grades

    DA sent out an earlier letter to FGOs about the letter that RTK just received. I've seen a copy, but since I was not an addressee, I feel uncomfortable posting it. Maybe someone else who received a copy might want to do so. I thought it was pretty interesting as an insight into the HRC "thinking" behind this incentive program.

  13. #93
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    Can someone shoot me a PM with the letter for Field Grades?

    Thanks
    Ski
    "Speak English! said the Eaglet. "I don't know the meaning of half those long words, and what's more, I don't believe you do either!"

    The Eaglet from Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland

  14. #94
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ski View Post
    Can someone shoot me a PM with the letter for Field Grades?

    Thanks
    Ski
    PM on the way.
    Example is better than precept.

  15. #95
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    RTK,if it is not to personal which one did you choose?

  16. #96
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    RTK,if it is not to personal which one did you choose?
    I'm waiting on branch to get back to me about which bonus I qualify for since I was an engineer before I was an armor guy. The way the contract is written, the dollar value depends on the branch you were initially assessed onto active duty for. It's a difference of $5k for me. Update:I get the dollar value of the branch I was assessed at coming in, which is what my pessimistic mind thought would happen.

    I went for the money. Here's my logic train:

    1. Money Option: Seldom, if ever, will we see this again. While I don't
    need the money and am not in debt, it will definitely help out the 401Ks and
    college funds for the kids. Also could be a good excuse to take a well
    needed kick ass vacation.

    2. Graduate School: An option regardless of this contract. With my
    undergrad GPA, I don't think I'm eligible for many of the programs anyway.
    With $30K I could finance my own through distance learning and still have
    cash left over. Plus, I'd like to get back to the operational Army. If I do
    the grad thing, that will be almost 4 years out of the force consecutively.
    I'd like to remain operationally relevent to the fight.

    3. Military School: Ranger school? Nope. That's a young man's game and I
    think I'm past my prime and tolerance level for some of the stupid crap they
    pull there. Language School? I can continue to focus with the Rosetta
    Stone program and test out at a post education center. Again, I'd rather
    not take myself out of the fighting Army for the length of time requried to
    make it worthwhile.

    4. Branch of Choice: My board met last week for Functional Area. I'm
    already in my second branch in 7 years. I'm happy where I'm at.

    5. Post of Choice: There are a lot of other ways to influence post than
    taking a 3 year ADSO. This might be the dumbest option on the list.
    Last edited by RTK; 09-13-2007 at 04:38 PM.
    Example is better than precept.

  17. #97
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    If you go the DL rotue (which I am doing through AMU), you can get up to $4500 a year in Tuition Assistance which in turn has a 2 year ADSO that starts the day you graduate. No need to spend your own cash.



    Quote Originally Posted by RTK View Post
    I'm waiting on branch to get back to me about which bonus I qualify for since I was an engineer before I was an armor guy. The way the contract is written, the dollar value depends on the branch you were initially assessed onto active duty for. It's a difference of $5k for me.

    I went for the money. Here's my logic train:

    1. Money Option: Seldom, if ever, will we see this again. While I don't
    need the money and am not in debt, it will definitely help out the 401Ks and
    college funds for the kids. Also could be a good excuse to take a well
    needed kick ass vacation.

    2. Graduate School: An option regardless of this contract. With my
    undergrad GPA, I don't think I'm eligible for many of the programs anyway.
    With $30K I could finance my own through distance learning and still have
    cash left over. Plus, I'd like to get back to the operational Army. If I do
    the grad thing, that will be almost 4 years out of the force consecutively.
    I'd like to remain operationally relevent to the fight.

    3. Military School: Ranger school? Nope. That's a young man's game and I
    think I'm past my prime and tolerance level for some of the stupid crap they
    pull there. Language School? I can continue to focus with the Rosetta
    Stone program and test out at a post education center. Again, I'd rather
    not take myself out of the fighting Army for the length of time requried to
    make it worthwhile.

    4. Branch of Choice: My board met last week for Functional Area. I'm
    already in my second branch in 7 years. I'm happy where I'm at.

    5. Post of Choice: There are a lot of other ways to influence post than
    taking a 3 year ADSO. This might be the dumbest option on the list.
    "Speak English! said the Eaglet. "I don't know the meaning of half those long words, and what's more, I don't believe you do either!"

    The Eaglet from Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland

  18. #98
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    Default issue with the new bonus options

    what's everyone's perspective on current EGSP folks not being eligible for the new incentives?

  19. #99
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    Default thoughts on new incentive program

    So I guess Iíll play DA on this one, Iíll preface this by admitting that I am a YG99 INF officer who is not eligible because Iím in my final quarter of the 6 qtr middle east curriculum at the Naval Post Grad school. I was in the first round of the Expanded Graduate School Program which when initially advertised was the expanded ACS (advanced civil schooling) program. I am a straight IN guy and I pursued Grad school and the ME curriculum at NPS after my tour in Iraq out of a desire to further my depth of understanding of the region, culture and COIN under the assumption that I will be back there again sooner than I would probably like.

    I guess the real issue I have with the new incentives program is the groups they have decided to exclude from the incentive. The main one being the BZ select group in YG99, the other being those who pursued a Masterís degree before it was designated a ďretention toolĒ. This one really bothers me since apparently the skills that I will bring to my next assignments are not as relevant as those that the guys sitting next to me will bring to West Point as part of the ACS program.

    Another issue Iíll bring up. Why is it based on your commissioning branch? In my case I was assessed a SC officer with a branch detail in IN. After a year I knew IN was my calling and IN is where I have been since, so I have never served a day as a signal guy but had I qualified for this I would have only received 25K rather than the 35K to my peers. RTK I believe you noted a similar circumstance.

    Iím also pretty concerned that big army has chosen, much like the enlisted ranks, to focus on immediate fixes rather than long term ones. Now that the door is open for bonuses for the officer ranks I would guess that it is going to be necessary from here on out to give these kinds of bonuses to keep the needed numbers of officers in the Army.

    Iím trying to understand why with such a large group that was included why such a small number were excluded and oh, by the way the ones excluded were the folks who supposedly are the best and brightest of these year groups. It just doesn't make sense that you offer the encentive to 5 YGs worth of officers, but you don't include the ones who were designated as the top 9.5% of the most senior YG being considered. Then you draw a distinction between those who are pursuing advanced educations, (note those who have a specified utilization tour following ACS are still eligible for another incentive).

    I know you have to draw the line somewhere, I readily admit that YG98 folks are probably disappointed that they are just out of the consideration for this program, but shouldn't the reasons for where the lines are drawn be consistent with some of the ideas expressed in this thread?

    Thoughts?
    DWF

  20. #100
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    There are othe YG's that are even more irked about this than others.

    Tom: You ain't living in Louisiana unless you are living south of I-10!

    Some thoughts from my foxhole:

    I agree with both RTK and adapt&overcome

    RTK is correct in defining what you need to focus on when training new LT's.

    A&O identified some very important shortcomings that have been the norm in the Army Officer Corps for a few years. Which I will address in my Texan manner of 'write'n, read'n, and numbers (we ain't ranked low in education for no reason)

    Write'n
    One of the great shortcomings in the Army is our inability to express ourselves in writing and speaking with langauge that resonates with policy makers. I was told this by one G.O. before he sent me on a tasker, and I have to agree with his assessment. As we advance, we have to understand that we are no longer just having to give "rally the troops" speeches. A retired G.O. reiterated this to a group of us earlier this week. While "the Army Writing Style" is important in training young cadets/officers in how to write effectively for military audiences, this writing style does little to showcase the breadth of intellectual talent that resides in the Army to outsiders. We need to up our game.

    Read'n
    We need to look beyond the CSA's reading list. It at best is a minimum, and some of those books have been on there for 17 years. Do young LT's need to be well versed in Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, Fuller, Liddell-Hart and such? No. Should they begin to be exposed to these guys? By all means yes. I would also argue that if you are going to be PL then read Platoon Leader, and learn how to write an Operations Order, and just as importantly how to understand what you are told to do in Operations Order. I would also say that we as military professionals should probably read some basic stuff on political science and international relations since both have a direct impact on us, and as leaders we have to be able to explain why we are doing what we are to our soldiers, and at times to our fellow Americans. So we should read, and we should read more than the CSA list.

    Math(That would be arithmetic for you yankees(I had to look it up))
    Bottom line:
    30 rds in a mag, 12 MRE's in a box, 1,000 meters in a click, 2 teams in a squad, 4 tracks in a platoon, 14 tracks in a company, and stay a click away from anything that goes "boom" if at all possible.

    There have been some articles written on the "anit-intellectualism" of the Army in the 1990's. I tend to agree with these assessments of the Army at that time. As a company grade officer I was told focus on executing, not thinking. It was all about execution. This is a discussion that comes up often among my peers, and this was the experience for about 80% of us. These options of grad school and language school were unheard of and discouraged if you wanted to be an "operations" guy. I think the institution is changing (probably) for the better, those of you who have these options take good advantage of them.

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