Officer Retention

[82redleg]

Okay, 18% hadn't deployed; I suspect that's fairly close to an Army norm; some unit types are always in greater demand than others and that creates an imbalance in a big, busy Army. You'd be amazed at how many Tankers never got to Viet Nam, much less some CS/CSS jobs and ranks...

Unless you're a brain surgeon or burn specialist, or something like that, which simply isn't done in Iraq, there is no excuse for a MAJ (or CPT P) to be without a deployment. Not at 8 years into the war. There is just no excuse.

18% is probably a little low for the Army, but most of that is IET and initial term soldiers in units getting ready for their first deployment, plus the initial term soldiers in Korea.

Find a CS branch that isn't in Iraq- they all are, and if you are a MAJ and haven't deployed, you are hiding. If you don't want to be a combat leader, find another organization.

[Schmedlap]

Unless you're a brain surgeon or burn specialist, or something like that, which simply isn't done in Iraq, there is no excuse for a MAJ (or CPT P) to be without a deployment. Not at 8 years into the war. There is just no excuse.

I'd be curious to know how this happens - even if it is intentional. If, for whatever reason, I wanted to avoid deployments, I don't know how I could have done it for 8 years. This is bizarre.

I actively avoided staff time and even that eventually caught up to me after 7 years. Those were 7 great years.

[jkm_101_fso]

I'd be curious to know how this happens - even if it is intentional. If, for whatever reason, I wanted to avoid deployments, I don't know how I could have done it for 8 years.

Korea. You can stay for multiple tours, as I understand it.

Field Artillery officers are the most deployed, statistically, but we still have a few out there with 5+ years in service and no deployments. Those that have managed it have done the Korea (mulitiple tours) then to Fort Sill COA. If you get the right unit at Sill (ATC, Schoolhouse, FiB) you can avoid deployment. I know an FA Major at ILE right now that has not deployed. I don't think he was actively avoiding it. His one shot to deploy he was the rear-D commander.

[patmc]

I'm sure there are a few people hiding, but the majority are probably victims of circumstance. I lucked out and deployed within a year of arriving at my first unit. Some guys arrived after we returned, and had to either "volunteer" for JMDs, Corps or Bde Taskers, or volunteer for MiTTs. The unit finally deployed again about 2 years later, so there were probably a couple guys who arrived and moved through in between without deploying.

Personally, I've been scratched from 4 deployments. Our unit deployment one year after return from Iraq was scratched one month out, I volunteered for a Corps tasker and was told no, I volunteered to stay and deploy with my unit but Branch said go to CCC, and I volunteered for a MiTT but a medical issue popped up and scratched me. I guess that last one was my fault (or the stir fry at Q-West midnight chow's fault).

Field Artillery officers are the most deployed, statistically, but we still have a few out there with 5+ years in service and no deployments. Those that have managed it have done the Korea (mulitiple tours) then to Fort Sill COA. If you get the right unit at Sill (ATC, Schoolhouse, FiB) you can avoid deployment. I know an FA Major at ILE right now that has not deployed. I don't think he was actively avoiding it. His one shot to deploy he was the rear-D commander.

I would think Fort Sill would make people want to deploy. After 6 months of OBC I was more than motivated to get out of there and go to Bragg so I could deploy. MSR Tampa may not have had nicker beer nights, but it did have better looking women than Lawton...

(I did learn that not wearing one's paracaidista wings in the 82d was more trouble than it was worth. So much for reverse elitism... ).

When we got back from Iraq and finally switched to ACUs, we usually didn't wear wings or badges because they were a pain to pin on. Once our Brigade fell under the 82nd though, we were ordered to wear it all, since it would prevent weird looks and questions if any of us staff guys had to go to Div HQ.

[Ken White]

at every Hq above bde; noticing insignia. Really, excessively noting insignia...

we were ordered to wear it all, since it would prevent weird looks and questions if any of us staff guys had to go to Div HQ.

I had a friend, well traveled, lot of schools, German, Canadian and Viet Namese parachute wings, lot of combat time, been a medic in Korea and and infantryman in Viet Nam, whose favorite game was to wear different stuff to every meeting at Div. Most people noticed but were too polite to say anything, Every now and then, someone would question. Shame I couldn't have sold popcorn on those days...

[Schmedlap]

I remember a retired NCO who worked at my old military school. 4 tours in Vietnam with Ranger Companies and SF units. When he wore ribbons (the "special" days when it was required), he only wore his valor awards and purple hearts - two rows, full of clusters, V's, and other knick-knacks. That guy had some amazing stories, if you could get him to stop talking about coon hunting or bass fishing for more than 2 minutes.

[patmc]

I had a friend, well traveled, lot of schools, German, Canadian and Viet Namese parachute wings...

Nothing stops traffic like a pair of Irish Airborne wings. Trying to understand "outboard personnel, stand up" in Gaelic... that's Army strong.

(during pre-jump, they gave the commands in English, until a Jumpmaster asked them to do it in Gaelic. Their response was basically, ok, but why, we speak English?)

[Schmedlap]

Korea. You can stay for multiple tours, as I understand it.

Heh. I know a guy who did over a year in Korea. All of the wives/girlfriends thought that their boys would be coming home after their Korea tour was up. Nope. They deployed from Korea to Anbar Province for a year-long tour of fun in the sun in the happy place between Ramadi and Fallujah. I think that was 2004 or 2005. I think just about everyone in that unit got divorced.

[AmericanPride]

Heh. I know a guy who did over a year in Korea. All of the wives/girlfriends thought that their boys would be coming home after their Korea tour was up. Nope. They deployed from Korea to Anbar Province for a year-long tour of fun in the sun in the happy place between Ramadi and Fallujah. I think that was 2004 or 2005. I think just about everyone in that unit got divorced.

Something like that seems completely unnecessary to me. Why impose (seemingly) unnecessary hardship on people who already volunteered for a life-risking job?

[Schmedlap]

Something like that seems completely unnecessary to me. Why impose (seemingly) unnecessary hardship on people who already volunteered for a life-risking job?

I think it occurred when the powers-that-were were slowly coming to the realization that, "oh crap, we didn't think to plan for anything after the fall of Baghdad - quick, find some more troops to deploy."

[tankersteve]

Ken and others,

I am sure you are right in many cases but Leavenworth has a lot of folks who I have a gut feeling would wear everything they were entitled to. I understand the notion of only wearing what one feels like he earned/deserved, but you can absolutely tell some of these folks have never smelled cordite outside of a range, and who knows when the last time they went to one of those.

Now, at one time it was harder for senior field grades to get to the fight, as their assignments are more tightly managed. However, with the plethora of staffs filled by JMDs, and the increase of MiTT teams, there is no reason to not have spent some time on the ground.

As for 2/2 ID from Korea, now those are some Soldiers who got screwed. Some may have done the 'Ironman' and not taken mid-tour leave prior to the deployment. To deploy from Korea (no face-to-face family goodbye, non-existent FRG, etc) to a combat zone for 12 months was something I would never want to endure. As a side-note, they limited consecutive tours in Korea...

Tankersteve

[reed11b]

I'd be curious to know how this happens - even if it is intentional. If, for whatever reason, I wanted to avoid deployments, I don't know how I could have done it for 8 years. This is bizarre.

I actively avoided staff time and even that eventually caught up to me after 7 years. Those were 7 great years.

Officer side is outside my sphere, but I keep running into active duty enlisted that have never deployed, while I work w/ NG and reservists that have been 3 or more times. Not all or probably even most of the active duty w/o deployments are becouse they were avoiding them in any way that I can tell.
Just seems to happen w/ the Army's training and PCS policies that some slip through.
Reed

[Steve Blair]

Unless you're a brain surgeon or burn specialist, or something like that, which simply isn't done in Iraq, there is no excuse for a MAJ (or CPT P) to be without a deployment. Not at 8 years into the war. There is just no excuse.

I know of at least one O-5 who hasn't deployed. And he's combat arms....

[Ken White]

Unless you're a brain surgeon or burn specialist, or something like that, which simply isn't done in Iraq, there is no excuse for a MAJ (or CPT P) to be without a deployment. Not at 8 years into the war. There is just no excuse.

Army Human Resources Command in full cry.

Without knowing branches involved, it's difficult to refute your generic position with specificity -- but a generic response could and would be that there are stabilized tours which HRC will rarely if ever violate and a person could have been in say the 1st Cav in 2003, moved to the Career Course in 04, stabilized tour 04-07, grad school 08-09. Or Grad school earlier then a utilization tour. Or gone to Korea in 04 returned from a short tour in 05 thus into a three year lock, thence to...

Well, you get the idea.

I hear what you're saying and I don't doubt there are a few who diligently avoided a tour -- but the probability is that everyone who has no deployments did not cheat to do so; it's the luck of the draw in a big, bureaucratic organization whose personnel system does NOT go to war and is emphatically not designed to support small wars; such wars are an unwanted intrusion into its 'orderly processes.'

Find a CS branch that isn't in Iraq- they all are, and if you are a MAJ and haven't deployed, you are hiding.

Sweeping statement. What's the net usage ratio in Iraq (or Afghanistan) of Signal Corps types, all modes including Strategic SatCom specialists? Info Systems specialists? How about acquisition types? Strategic MI Specialists? What's the net number of Engineer units and jobs versus the number of elements deployed? Aviation types who are Aeronautical Engineers doing R&D stuff? MI guys on the RC7 / EO5 birds? Or the MI guy who gets credit for no deployment but has been in a sensitive job in an unnamed nation -- and in more danger than all his peers in Iraq? Or the poor Engineer Captain who got stuck at the wrong time in this : LINK or his buddy who was an exchange officer with the Bundeswehr? The airplane driver (or other CS type) assigned to MilGroup Argentina -- or Brazil? The Aviator who was assigned to the DAO in Estonia to ferry Stan about?

If you don't want to be a combat leader, find another organization.

I strongly agree with that sentiment -- I equally strongly disagree that anyone who has not deployed fits automatically in that category.

As I told both my sons who went to jump school; "Go forth and do great things, I'm proud of you. Do not swallow that airborne mystique foolishness, that stuff will get you killed -- and always remember to take a 2 second think break before acting or speaking." I also told them to be nervous about a combat leader who's prone to sweeping absolutes. I've seen too many of those guys get too many people killed for no good reason.

It's a big Army and it does a lot of things too many in it do not even know it does...

[Van]

I have to second Ken's observations regarding the Human Resource Command. Being a 'resource' sometimes means getting treated as shelf stock, to the point where I feel like NOS (New old stock; never sold, but very dated).

I hear what you're saying and I don't doubt there are a few who diligently avoided a tour -- but the probability is that everyone who has no deployments did not cheat to do so; it's the luck of the draw in a big, bureaucratic organization whose personnel system does NOT go to war and is emphatically not designed to support small wars; such wars are an unwanted intrusion into its 'orderly processes.'

As far as I can tell, the more aggressively you volunteer to deploy, the further down the list of "resources to manage" you get placed.

I've stopped trying to deploy and, as a Reservist, am just taking the tours I can find.

[Shek]

Unless you're a brain surgeon or burn specialist, or something like that, which simply isn't done in Iraq, there is no excuse for a MAJ (or CPT P) to be without a deployment. Not at 8 years into the war. There is just no excuse.

Find a CS branch that isn't in Iraq- they all are, and if you are a MAJ and haven't deployed, you are hiding. If you don't want to be a combat leader, find another organization.

I can think of plenty examples that make sense on the eaches, and it's simply a matter of timing. I'm coming off of five years between grad school and teaching at West Point that were programmed in the fall of 2002 when Afghanistan was a brigade blip on the radar and the world was watching as Colin Powell was sitting in front of the UN making the case about Iraq and new resolutions.

Because I turned down an immediate command at Fort Lewis so I could command during the latter part of the initial operation capability train up and be with the unit with the potential to deploy, I deployed to OIF 1.5/2 and when I entered grad school, Iraq was supposedly on a glide path to having very few forces by now (we all know that that plan was thrown out pretty quickly when reality hit). However, I know plenty of folks who either hit like assignments the year ahead of me (no Iraq) or else right after me (they finished command before their unit became part of the OIF/OEF rotations) who haven't deployed. They weren't hiding and it was a matter of timing. They're moving directly to the front of the line for their branches for deploying (whether to a unit that's deploying or more likely, to a MiTT/ETT) now that their time is up.

That being said, I also know of cases where folks are hiding, and so the reality is a little more nuanced than no deployment = you suck.

[tankersteve]

Just returned from a short visit at Leavenworth and saw a lot of senior field grades (O5-O6) with no combat patch. Not really sure how long an assignment there is, but I doubt it is for more than 4 years. Hope those guys that are teaching, or managing those that teach, get their 'opportunity'. Maybe then the gentleman who conducted our introduction briefing would have a greater pet peeve than 'hands in the pockets'...

Yes I understand HRC is a huge part of the problem. I had a great NCO at Fort Irwin who was on his 3d TRADOC assignment, none of them requested. He was DA-select as a drill sergeant, then asked to be an OCS instructor with the possibility to select assignment of choice. He requested Fort Lewis, Hawaii, or Alaska, in that order. Pretty good locations for an 11B E-7. They sent him to Irwin to be an O/C, without a combat tour. Pretty dumb. Still, being the outstanding NCO he was, he worked harder than everybody, always learned the latest TTPs, and was effective. But he always had to work with a platoon for a while to gain some basic credibility.

I have another friend who commanded in Korea and then went to West Point for 4 years. Hasn't deployed. Yet HRC wants to send him to ILE ahead of his peers (by about 18 months for his yeargroup, according to his branch's ILE slate), with no combat patch. Seems like a MITT tour would have made a lot more sense - get him 'greened' again, and get him some credibility.

Oh well, I used to think if I ran the Army for a week, the changes I would make. Now I wonder what my entire generation will be able to do.

Tankersteve

[Schmedlap]

Just returned from a short visit at Leavenworth and saw a lot of senior field grades (O5-O6) with no combat patch.

There are two sides to those stories, as well. I never bothered to wear a combat patch/CIB/etc until I PCS'd to a place where there were lots of field grade officers. Many assumed that if I did not wear a combat patch then I had never deployed. They would attempt to mentor me on what it's like to deploy, what to expect, et cetera - largely tales influenced by their tours in staff positions on giant FOBs. That was when I started donning every piece of uniform accessory that I was authorized to flaunt, simply to avoid their sage wisdom.

I learned a while ago not to assume that if it is not worn then it was not obtained. I knew a lot of people who rested their credibility on what uniform accessories they were sporting, rather than their actual competence and I knew a lot of leaders who used the same screening process in hastily sizing up their subordinates. Both of those annoyed me, as there were many cases when the guy with less stuff was the better leader/Soldier than the guy with the fruit salad/PX variety pack. Not wanting to be a part of it, I generally chose not to spend the time or money to play the game. I always discovered that many others did the same, in every unit that I was in - not always for the exact same reasons, but we all generally shared one commonality: the belief that "it's not what you've done; it's what you do."

[Ken White]

...I learned a while ago not to assume that if it is not worn then it was not obtained... the belief that "it's not what you've done; it's what you do."

There have always those who would wear anything they could hang on a uniform. Most wear what they're supposed to; many will do that only when it seems to be the right thing to do and otherwise wear nothing or a bare minimum (I did learn that not wearing one's paracaidista wings in the 82d was more trouble than it was worth. So much for reverse elitism... ).

I suspect some of those field grades at Leavenworth with no right arm patch haven't deployed to either theater, most through no fault of their own -- I'll also bet many of them have deployed and simply do not feel a need to advertise.

Had a good friend once upon a time who refused to wear a right arm patch on the rationale that he'd been in three good units and didn't want to slight any of them by wearing another patch. Know a guy with a CIB who didn't wear it because he didn't think he'd earned it. Know another guy with a DSC -- that's all he ever wore aside from his brass...

It is indeed all about what you do.

Today.