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Thread: Officer Retention

  1. #121
    Council Member jonSlack's Avatar
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    Default WaPo - Army Offers Big Cash To Keep Key Officers

    WaPo - Army Offers Big Cash To Keep Key Officers


    More than 18,000 Army captains are eligible for the bonuses and more than a third of those have taken them since the new cash offer was announced on Sept. 13, senior Army officers said this week. An additional 900 officers have taken other incentives to stay on.

    ...

    The Army's goal is for 85 percent of those eligible to stay on, either taking the bonus or another incentive such as attending graduate school or selecting their next post.
    "In times of change learners inherit the earth; while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists." - Eric Hoffer

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    Council Member wm's Avatar
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    Has Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame) captured HRC thinking about retention incentives with this cartoon?

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    Has Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame) captured HRC thinking about retention incentives with this cartoon?
    Target, FFE.

    I think of it as the QuickClot approach.

  4. #124
    Council Member wm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Thornton View Post
    Target, FFE.

    I think of it as the QuickClot approach.
    The only problem with the Quick Clot approach is that sometimes we forget to roll the patient over and see that the exit wound is many times much larger than the entry wound that we just patched (a la Snowden's terrible secret in Catch-22). Or, to continue the medical metaphor, we only palliate or alleviate the symptoms rather than applying a cure. Taking Acetaminophen may lower the fever associated with an infection, but it sure won't kill any of those germs.

  5. #125
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Thornton View Post
    Target, FFE.

    I think of it as the QuickClot approach.
    Agreed. As I said over in the Yingling thread, the army has yet to address the "root causes", which are the issued identified in the 2000 CSA Study and other sources. OPTEMPO is a major factor driving people to the doors, but do an "exit survey" on those leaving and you find bad leadership as a constant as well - and the issues are the same as 2000.

    The army I suppose has made serious reform "too hard" given the ongoing conflict, and with the supplimentals has more money than energy to devote to something as controversial as promotion/schooling/officer evaluation reform.
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  6. #126
    Council Member Rob Thornton's Avatar
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    You know - it amazes me (and this is my very own personal opinion), we'll spend 35K to keep a guy - who may or may not have been going to stay, but we refuse to tell the civilians who we hire to represent us in areas involving family quality of life to be flexible in their policies with regard to soldiers on in between deployments. We have contracted out so many areas from housing and billeting to health and dental, to everything that can be in order to be able to put more teeth in our structure, but the cost is a bureaucracy staffed by people who have no clue what it is to serve, and worry about protecting their policies and pulling in a bottom line. We are doing the same with Dept of Defense Schools, DFAS (don't get me started on a story that could read "Carrie meets the Exorcist") and other areas, and its a shame. Somebody mentioned on the Blog regarding Sec Def Gates' speech that while he was giving his speech the main exhibition at the AUSA was the hardware - we talk a good game, but I'm not sure we really understand people, if we did we'd tackle the the tough problems instead of providing solutions that are only power point deep. Sometimes I wonder if we really believe we are at war - its not enough if the green suiters do, we've given up too much of our ability to take care of our own back at the home front in between deployments, and I'm not even sure we realized we did it - it must have sounded like a good deal when it was briefed.

    One day we're going to look back and say, "damn, where did everybody go?", then we'll scratch our heads, dust off an old set of slides and roll out a fresh set of bonuses.

    Take care of the soldiers and their families, and they will both take care of you. Mess with the family as a unit, don't ensure they are taken care of when ever and wherever possible, and you lose them both. Its sad when you see a train wreck, its even more so when you see it coming, realize it could be avoided, but know the guy in charge of the switch is either day dreaming, or looking at his watch and saying "that can't be a train - my schedule says no train due for ohhh......."

    Best, Rob
    Last edited by Rob Thornton; 10-17-2007 at 12:56 AM.

  7. #127
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    We are doing the same with Dept of Defense Schools, DFAS (don't get me started on a story that could read "Carrie meets the Exorcist") and other areas, and its a shame.
    You know Rob, this hits home very hard for me right now. I'm due to PCS next year, and the decision behind my desired billets is dominate by whether the base has a DoDEA high school. They're just aren't many of them around in the Corps, yet that's important to me.

    is it going to stop me from staying? Surely no, but I think you're right, and there may come a day when the teachers lose that bond with the parents they support, and then Johnny comes home black and blue from a bully that the teacher ignored for weeks on end. You should see the teachers at all of my daughters' schools. They are married to Marines, were raised by Marines, etc. They don't take crap from anybody, least of all a snot-nosed 5th grader.

    And they make everyone stands and recites the Pledge of Allegiance everyday and make sure the Christmas play goes off as scheduled, not the damn "holiday" play.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Thornton View Post
    You know - it amazes me (and this is my very own personal opinion), we'll spend 35K to keep a guy - who may or may not have been going to stay, but we refuse to tell the civilians who we hire to represent us in areas involving family quality of life to be flexible in their policies with regard to soldiers on in between deployments. We have contracted out so many areas from housing and billeting to health and dental, to everything that can be in order to be able to put more teeth in our structure, but the cost is a bureaucracy staffed by people who have no clue what it is to serve, and worry about protecting their policies and pulling in a bottom line.Best, Rob
    Since WWII, the Armed forces have become a Corporation as much as anything else, with everything that that implies and entails, above all its culture. As far as these things are concerned then, the bureaucracy can only really see it how any other business would - as an HR/recruiting/staffing problem, and respond in kind - bonuses, incentives, more civilian education anyone?

    Forces are "assets", dead civilians are "collateral damage", locating the enemy is "target acquisition"; for about half-a-century of more, the military has been "encouraged", even required, to compete for funding to civilian univeristies and the like to earn degrees in business administration, systems analysis (perhaps the two most onerous examples), ad nauseum. The Armed Forces Officer has not been professionalized; he's been "careerized", and above all, civilianized (or at least large swathes of the officer corps have long been so, effectively.

    As such, those who are professionals at heart cannot help but loathe, not just dislike, much of the prevailing service culture, while those "careerists" are those most likely to be swayed by the offers of such incentives such as Bonuses offered by the Corporation (ie., the Army). Similarly, a Corporation has little to no interest in the family life and personal well-being of its employees, or even in a common corporate ethos that actually is real, not just contrived; while there are certainly senior leaders who understand and try to mitigate this, the overall corporate culture ultimately stifles this.

    Rob, you are completely correct that the Army, as an institution, does not and cannot see, let alone really comprehend and appreciate, people. That's in large part because the Army is not so much an institution as a corporation. And countless people have been saying this for at least 40-some years.

  9. #129
    Council Member Rob Thornton's Avatar
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    Default Going on the "economy" for our kids' education

    nd there may come a day when the teachers lose that bond with the parents they support, and then Johnny comes home black and blue from a bully that the teacher ignored for weeks on end. You should see the teachers at all of my daughters' schools. They are married to Marines, were raised by Marines, etc. They don't take crap from anybody, least of all a snot-nosed 5th grader.
    Amen - we recently moved off post for the move to Carlisle for BSAP where we moved to a nearby town because after 14 months deployed I decided to take the family with me vs. leaving them for another 8 months then going back to a high OPTEMPO job - my attempt to balance out my responsibility to the Army and my family life (BTW - so far it looks in the too hard to do column - the Institution is not geared to resource balance) - back on thread - anyway the school we wound up in had a good reputation and the corporate housing we leased had some good families in it (although I've about maxed myself out to make it happen - personal choice and worth it to us). My boy was having some problems getting integrated into the school - he'd never had problems before - he'd always done really well. So one day when I had driven back there on the weekend commute from Belvoir (location of current follow on school for new majors- also not "installationally" geared to the soldier returning from deployment and TDY enroute) I went and saw his teacher. Nice lady, good school, but no clue of what its like to be a service member, no real understanding of what deployments do to kids, no real empathy for kids whose parents do what we do, and not the same types of teachers we had at Knox. Kids were different too - they'd all been friends since Kindergarten - whereas kids on post know what its like to show up at a new post and have to make new friends, they know what its like to have a dad or Mom deployed, and they know at least one other kid whose mom or Dad did not come back. Military kids are special in that regard, and they deserve the very best - and so do their military parents - the last thing we want is for deployed Moms and Dads worrying about their kids and their spouses while they should be focused on the mission. Doing away with DoDS means kids being bussed off post in many cases and civilian kids being bussed on post as subject to local zoning rules. It also means local teachers paid by local standards vs. the quality of teacher who will commute for the extra DoDS money - it makes a difference.

    Norfolk - you are absolutely correct - it is starting to feel like a corporation in all the ways we don't like,and all the ways that we profess we are different - honestly - it leaves you with a knot in your stomach.

    Best, Rob
    Last edited by Rob Thornton; 10-17-2007 at 02:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Thornton View Post
    I went and saw his teacher. Nice lady, good school, but no clue of what its like to be a service member, no real understanding of what deployments do to kids, no real empathy for kids whose parents do what we do, and not the same types of teachers we had at Knox. Kids were different too - they'd all been friends since Kindergarten - whereas kids on post know what its like to show up at a new post and have to make new friends, they know what its like to have a dad or Mom deployed, and they know at least one other kid whose mom or Dad did not come back.
    I'm not surprised your boy had trouble getting integrated into his school. Kids in most regular communities today have no "social skils", but not in the pop-psychology sense. They have no basic pleasantries and are not taught to welcome newcomers. They are completeley hooked into thier own little groups. It goes beyond their disinterest in outsiders to thier actual capabilities of communication. It is very difficult for a newcomer to follow conversations, let alone comment on them, due to the over use of pronouns. Try listening to kids these days, you can't figure out whome, or what, they are talking about (its not because of the lingo.) Then go meet thier parents and you will understand why the kids are like this. Their interests are their life and if you are not part of it, you are not able to interface or get involved.

    With all the touchy feely BS they put in teachers training, they have trained the empathy and sensetivity right out of them, and this is despite the fact that empathey and sensitivity have replaced academics when it comes to trianing teachers.

    I am truly sorry your son is having trouble, and I wish you and your son the best of luck with this.

    Adam

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    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    This isn't really a new problem, either, Rob (sad to say). I faced it in the 1970s and 1980s as an Air Force dependent. The only time I was in DoDS was when we were in Germany. Every other time it was a local school near the base...and you always had two major groups: the AF kids and the locals. The locals had known each other since dirt and liked to gang up on the AF kids. I had friends who went to school in San Antonio, and it was far worse there. And no one in the support structure really seemed to care, either.
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  12. #132
    Council Member Rob Thornton's Avatar
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    I just wanted to bring it up to highlight the "Kitchen 6" effect and her staff of K1, K2, K3, K4 on the retention issue. Its hard to qualify and provide weight for what appears to be subjective - but the effect is holistic with regard to the issue. If we spend our money to mitigate the K6 effect - it means making military life attractive to them in a manner that is not a fire and forget bonus. If you are going to have a persistent effect - you have to show a persistent commitment. It does not have to be large on the individual, day to day scale -i.e. a bonus every year, but it does have to show "why" its better - and this does not just mean repackaging diminishing benefits into an end of year statement - it means actually doing something novel.

    But Steve and Adam you are absolutely right - and to go back to the Non-Linear aspect - if you take away stuff from the kids- there is a response far out of proportion to the perceived (on paper) deprivation - no questions - if I have to choose my family or my job, and I have options - I'll choose family. The incentives can compensate for some things however, but the belief has to be that things are getting better, not worse, and to foster that belief means matching the narrative with actions - which sounds allot like some of the methodology we use to describe LLOOs in COIN - how did that happen - oh yea- we're talking about people - go figure.

    Best, Rob
    Last edited by Rob Thornton; 10-17-2007 at 10:22 PM.

  13. #133
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    I had this long diatribe ready to post but I felt it was pedantic.

    In summary.

    If you use contractors for housing, services, etc. you remove billets to put military folk that can be used to rest and recuperate service members and employ family members.

    Contractors on base just don't have that sense of urgency and they don't deploy as part of a team.

    Schools k through 12 used to be on the base and now they're seeming to become a dying breed. BIG MISTAKE.

    I've been told that officer wives clubs are the best thing for female spouses and the worst thing. The following spouse now isn't always a female, and they may be a doctor or lawyer.

    I'm hearing a lot of grumbling from junior ranks about fears of downsizing like after Vietnam. Real or not it could have an effect.
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  14. #134
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    Default Fading Force

    From today's Early Bird

    Raleigh News & Observer, October 28, 2007, Pg. 31

    "A Fading Fighting Force"
    Army battles big shortages, low standards

    By Joseph L. Galloway

    http://ebird.afis.mil/cgi-bin/ebird/...029556833.html

    Good article on the current problem facing junior officer and NCO's. Not enough people, equipment, or time to do more and more missions. The "bonus" has not had a real impact in my unit, where only those already planning to stay in have taken it. 3,000 to 6,000 short in next 3 years. This does not bode well for the republic.

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    For those who do not have access to the Early Bird - Asking Too Much of Too Few by Joe Galloway.

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    This makes for rather discouraging, approaching the borders of grim, reading. Trying to increase the size of the Army and the Marine Corps during a war, without conscription (admittedly politically impossible), and while the majority of the junior officer corps is taking their release at the end of their initial 5-year committment (never mind the NCO's and the enlisted ranks), results in a completely schizophrenic condition in the Army. This seems to lead, almost inexorably, to a bad result. Sad.

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    Council Member Rob Thornton's Avatar
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    Consider what else goes along with expanding the Army - you are going to have to create or pull senior leadership to meet those force structure requirements as well. You can promote - but their are problems with that as well - such as quality (it takes a while to make a good anything however much potential they have), and the new vacuums it creates in the force structure below, you can take/re-assign from career fields & functional areas - but then you take expertise you've invested into for a reason and place it back into ops & command. You can "not" advance folks so that they pull additional time in a given rank - but that just means more folks leave. You can fill billets with untrained and unqualified ranks without the authority to match the position. You can open up things a bit for more flexibility - enlarge your gene pool. All are alternatives - all are choices we'd rather not make in a perfect world. All of this while we've identified some short falls in our PME and ACS we'd like to shore up to better prepare our leaders for the challenges they face, along with exposing our junior leaders to operational and strategic thinking early in their careers.

    Its tricky business justifying extreme measures toward retention & recruiting - its hard to measure who will stay and who will go, hard to lay out what it will take to keep them, hard to judge and portray how their families effect them. But just because its hard does not mean we can't change. We seem to be short on easy answers these days, I think all that might be left is hard choices.

    Best, Rob
    Last edited by Rob Thornton; 10-30-2007 at 01:46 AM.

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    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    I got mine.

    Then I found out two weeks later I have to do $24,000 of work on my house that won't be covered by insurance before it collapses.

    I can only laugh at the cruel and typical irony in all this.

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    There are rumblings out of the G1 community that certain NCO and Officer ranks are hurting very badly - and may take a decade to fix.

    You want to expand the Army? Activate some ARNG BCT's and DIV HQ's for the duration.

    If that's politically impossible, then maybe the war isn't that important.
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  20. #140
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ski View Post
    There are rumblings out of the G1 community that certain NCO and Officer ranks are hurting very badly - and may take a decade to fix.
    You want to expand the Army? Activate some ARNG BCT's and DIV HQ's for the duration.
    If that's politically impossible, then maybe the war isn't that important.
    If the center of gravity of the public is not willing to support a war it's not the publics fault. Even the most ardent supporters of the military and the politics in motion are questioning trillion dollar cost estimates and administration tactics like faux new conferences. Linking disparate political agendas may not be fair but I've never known a soldier to whine about fair.

    In a democracy the civilian leadership is required to make a case for a war and in this instance the trust of that case is eroding under public scrutiny. Similarly if the often mistaken "all volunteer Army" is not up to the task of waging a war based solely on an all volunteer force then that is a failure of the senior Army leadership. Federalization of the Army National Guard is nothing more than back door conscription that will likely result in breaking the back of the USANG much like the Army is feeling the pain now if it isn't already to late.

    Contrary to popular belief the Army and military in general is not the foreign legion. An all volunteer military has certain rights to vote with it's feet and if those volunteers are saying family life in generational length warfare is important than we have to honor that. If the only way to keep a standing military is stop-loss or forced recall then we have already reached conscription status. You can't use stop-loss and all volunteer as policies at the same time and have credibility as a senior military leader.

    If I had to have crazy ideas I'd ask a few questions.

    Is the war in Iraq more important than forward deployment of troops in foreign lands? If so, then pull troops from forward deployment and abandon those bases. If not, then you've started a path to cyclical withdrawl from Iraq.

    Is the war in Iraq more important than the war in Afghanistan? If so, then withdraw from Afghanistan and if not you've made a choice.

    This leads us to some interesting conclusions.

    The Army is about defense as well as offensive capability. As a citizen I am concerned that the current civilian and military leadership is chewing up the ability to protect my homeland and has abrogated the defense of America to foreign lands. If the threat of terrorism is so great then force projection can only work so long until the adversary understands the rules. The inter-service rivalries aside the Air Force can not protect against border jumpers and terrorists.

    The most critical asset for the military of any branch is the human resource. The public and treasury can only stand so many space age robot warrior toys for the military. Sooner or later somebody is going to have to stand on a chunk of ground and defend it for living breathing people. You want and must demand that the person protecting others be of the highest standards possible. Criminals, and idiots create orders of magnitude parasitic drag on high performance organizations. Where the public is annoyed with expenditure on toys and gadgets they are appalled at war crimes and criminal acts by soldiers. We will be haunted by the specter of Abu Gharib prisoner abuse and Blackwater cowboys for years.

    In the cauldron of warfare those charged with keeping the rank and file clean will only stand for so much abuse and mis-management by general staff and civilian leaders. A soldiers life is hard by the nature of the job it is not a leaders right to make that life punitive because we promote idiots to their highest levels of incompetence.

    As much as we may wish to promote action for the exigencies of the service we can not do that in generational length war. We can not enforce volunteerism. We can not expect military service to be the only service applicable to those willing to serve society. We can not expect those who show the brightest, greatest, and most love for their country to give up home and family. We can not rob from our reserves and create defacto conscription. We can hold our civilian leaders accountable to make real choices and not false presumptions. We can realize that generational length warfare in Iraq may mean abandoning Afghanistan. We may not like it but a dysfunctional Army shed of it's backbone ranks may mean an isolationist international political environment.
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