What would you do/say?

[St. Christopher]

Unless there is a new definition of suborn I don't know, this will turn into a circular logic thread.



I don't think there is any of that here. In the letter of the definition, I disagree with the word's usage here.

Typo on my part-- I mean "subordinated."

I submit to you that intelligence and operations DRIVE information and effects; that information and effects are the resultant byproducts of good intelligence and operations.

They do NOW as a matter of practice. But I believe this is the wrong way of going about waging an Information War.

In the information war we stand to gain a lot by breaking the stereotype that the Soldier, Marine, Airman, and Sailor are only there to kill. Counter the insurgency IO with better IO. If I'm the one operating in a particular AO, I'm not going to let some organization that has no stake in success, no reward for being there, who is not accountable to me, and who can leave whenever they choose shape the battlefield for me. In short, I'm not letting the civilians do my job because in the 5 years we've been in Iraq (IMHO and the opinion of the shieks, religious leaders, politicians, and tribal leader's I've worked with), the NGOs have a worse reputation for failing to deliver than the coalition forces. It's easy (and routine) for an NGO to go into a bilateral engagement, promise the world, and never come back. Then I have to deal with it. Now what have we lost.

That's a very good observation. In the ideal world, yes, civilian-led ops are probably the best way to go, but given what we have now in Iraq and Afghanistan, the military is being forced to improvise. That leads to a much larger debate over the ability (and even authority) of the military to perform roles and responsibilities in conflict zones that it was not designed to do.

All I'm getting at is that despite the realities of the tactical situation you portray, the grand strategic picture is negatively affected by images of uniformed and armed Americans in the ummah. I don't think many of us, myself included, truly understand the psychological, socio-cultural, and behavioral effects of that yet.

[skiguy]

To go along with what St Christopher said, wouldn't a civilian be better, perhaps even more desired, in certain situations? (religious and education issues are 2 things that come to mind). Yes, you could get a Chaplain, but someone in civilian clothing would probably seem more "neutral" to them. (especially if that civilian really knows and understands Islam)

Why aren't there more experienced diplomatic officers over there? Is it lack of training? Is it because the military doesn't want them there yet? (which I would find hard to believe) Or are there too few volunteering to go?

[RTK]

Why aren't there more experienced diplomatic officers over there? Is it lack of training? Is it because the military doesn't want them there yet? (which I would find hard to believe) Or are there too few volunteering to go?

We asked them to come to the party 4 years ago. We're still waiting for them to show up...

[Uboat509]

We asked them to come to the party 4 years ago. We're still waiting for them to show up...

Didn't you hear? There's people shooting and blowing stuff up over there.

SFC W

[St. Christopher]

Why aren't there more experienced diplomatic officers over there? Is it lack of training? Is it because the military doesn't want them there yet? (which I would find hard to believe) Or are there too few volunteering to go?

That's a long and complicated answer to your question, ski. Uboat and RTK are right on the money though-- the State Department, for a host of different reasons, is at the mall.

[redbullets]

Though there were some State folks who wanted to be part of the "in crowd", and whom ORHA (under Garner) wanted invited to the party, but as I understand it, DoD rescinded the invitations.

There were smart folks running around over there in 2003 saying we should be doing what the tribal leaders wanted us to do for them, instead of what WE wanted to do for them, but it took a lot of pain before that sorted out.

Letting the Shaikh know what you're there to do, hearing what he needs, and finding some way to meet some of those needs comprise a sound way to get something started on the ground.

Cheers,