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Thread: Training the Soldier for COIN

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    Council Member Strategic LT's Avatar
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    Default Training the Soldier for COIN

    Council,

    My unit is scheduled to deploy within the next 60 days. I am trying to develop a series of classes and readings for the soldier level. What I am struggling with is what I want them to know versus what they will be receptive to and retain. Any resources the council can provide would be helpful. I'm looking for a broad spectrum of sources; video, short readings (excerpts, articles etc.) class suggestions. Your help and experience would be greatly appreciated.

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    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strategic LT View Post
    Council,

    My unit is scheduled to deploy within the next 60 days. I am trying to develop a series of classes and readings for the soldier level. What I am struggling with is what I want them to know versus what they will be receptive to and retain. Any resources the council can provide would be helpful. I'm looking for a broad spectrum of sources; video, short readings (excerpts, articles etc.) class suggestions. Your help and experience would be greatly appreciated.
    Couple quick steps for you to take:

    1. Send me an e-mail. You're FA, right?

    2. Read the 3d ACR reading list COL McMaster came up with and I'm sure COL Bills added to.

    3. Focus on security operations, sensitive site exploitation, bilateral engagement.

    After the e-mail, I'll get in contact with you for more refined guidance.
    Last edited by RTK; 09-08-2007 at 02:28 PM.
    Example is better than precept.

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    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    I'll try to remember to share with you an example of the Marine Corps' Pre-Deployment Training Program (PTP). It is pretty well organized, and although I don't have access to all of the classes, it is a good starting point.

    I'm perplexed though, are you active duty and deploying as part of a larger unit, or AR/NG and about to mobilize and fall in on a gaining force command.

    Either way, why hasn't HHQ directed the tasks that your Soldiers need to be proficient in? Or has that guidance been poor?

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    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    I'll try to remember to share with you an example of the Marine Corps' Pre-Deployment Training Program (PTP). It is pretty well organized, and although I don't have access to all of the classes, it is a good starting point.

    I'm perplexed though, are you active duty and deploying as part of a larger unit, or AR/NG and about to mobilize and fall in on a gaining force command.

    Either way, why hasn't HHQ directed the tasks that your Soldiers need to be proficient in? Or has that guidance been poor?
    j,

    PM enroute to you....
    Example is better than precept.

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    Council Member Strategic LT's Avatar
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    j,

    Not NG. (Read Profile) We are getting your standard stuff. However, I would like to expand and go more in depth. Appreciate any help you can provide.

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    Council Member Xenophon's Avatar
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    I wouldn't bother using any of the standard directed PTP courses. If the Army's is anything like the Marine Corps', it's a joke. (And most of the Marine Corps' consists of Army classes) I've been thinking about this issue for a while. The issue is training high school kids in the graduate level of war, to use a cliched analogy. Are you going to pull a high school senior out of AP Biology and then give him a test from an M.A. Molecular Biology course? No. But that's what we need to do. I haven't really come up with an answer yet, although I think Mojave/Cajun Viper is a step in the right direction. I do know that Death by Powerpoint ain't it. The problem isn't just with young enlisted soldiers. You're one of the select few company grade officers that "get it." We can debate every aspect of COIN to the smallest intellectual minutiae and have a grand old time doing it, but until Lieutenants like you and me and NCOs that "get it" come up with a good way to engage those officers, NCOs, and nonrates, make them "get it" and make them believe in it, we're spinning our wheels.

    I fortunately don't have to deal with it at the moment. I'm deploying with a MTT team in December and all of our enlisted Marines volunteered quite enthusiastically. They already get it. Good luck with yours.

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    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    So are you saying, Xenophon, that directing a Marine to know his IFAK, crew-served proficiency, and IED awareness, is a joke?

    Remember, we're talking individual skills here, not collective stuff at Blocks III, IV and V. Have you been through a PTP rotation? While CLS training may be based off of Army precepts, I'm not sure where you can substantiate that the majority of classes are Army in nature. They may be joint, but by all means, they are definitely Marine flavored or at least should be driven by the commander as such.

    I don't think anyone says you have to use death by Powerpoint. In fact, there is no better way to train IED awareness than to do it in the field, while moving tactically.
    Last edited by jcustis; 09-08-2007 at 06:16 PM.

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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    There is no substitute for UXO and/or IED/IEDD training. One cannot and does not train EOD from Powerpoint. It's hands on or death.

    The courses from LE, Army, Marines and Navy are one in the same. 'bout time we realized that at the end of each day, we are still on the same team - Officers or NCOs, Army or Marines.

    This is not a joke.

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Amen to that

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    There is no substitute for UXO and/or IED/IEDD training. One cannot and does not train EOD from Powerpoint. It's hands on or death.

    The courses from LE, Army, Marines and Navy are one in the same. 'bout time we realized that at the end of each day, we are still on the same team - Officers or NCOs, Army or Marines.

    This is not a joke.
    Parochialism is more damaging to us than AQ et.al. ever will be...

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    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophon View Post
    I wouldn't bother using any of the standard directed PTP courses. If the Army's is anything like the Marine Corps', it's a joke. (And most of the Marine Corps' consists of Army classes) I've been thinking about this issue for a while. The issue is training high school kids in the graduate level of war, to use a cliched analogy. Are you going to pull a high school senior out of AP Biology and then give him a test from an M.A. Molecular Biology course? No. But that's what we need to do. I haven't really come up with an answer yet, although I think Mojave/Cajun Viper is a step in the right direction. I do know that Death by Powerpoint ain't it. The problem isn't just with young enlisted soldiers. You're one of the select few company grade officers that "get it." We can debate every aspect of COIN to the smallest intellectual minutiae and have a grand old time doing it, but until Lieutenants like you and me and NCOs that "get it" come up with a good way to engage those officers, NCOs, and nonrates, make them "get it" and make them believe in it, we're spinning our wheels.

    I fortunately don't have to deal with it at the moment. I'm deploying with a MTT team in December and all of our enlisted Marines volunteered quite enthusiastically. They already get it. Good luck with yours.
    Sumarize for me, if you will, your biggest issue. I'm not sure I "get it." Further, what's your proposed fix to the issue?
    Example is better than precept.

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    Council Member Xenophon's Avatar
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    So are you saying, Xenophon, that directing a Marine to know his IFAK, crew-served proficiency, and IED awareness, is a joke?

    Have you taken those courses? Do you really think staring at a computer screen trains a Marine to clear an M240 jam under fire? Or give a buddy a needle decompression under fire? Those things require muscle memory. Getting kids to care about media relations and big picture, war on terror adversaries requires involved leadership, something Marinenet takes out of the training process. Quality in training is being completely destroyed by expediency. The only saving grace of the PTP Marinenet courses is that the test is one question, "Did you view the course?", so the Marine can simply skip to the test, click yes, and not waste his time.

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    Council Member Strategic LT's Avatar
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    A collaborative effort by the PSGs and LTs in my unit have come up with a list of things they would like to accomplish so far.

    CLS refresher.....scenario based
    Land Nav....open terrain and urban (we will use Killeen)
    Individual weapons refreshers
    Crew serve weapons refreshers
    Battle Drills
    Convoy Trainer (Interactive trainer, uses tv screens etc.)
    IED training....scenario based

    none of which are COIN concepts, but your regular soldier skills

    COIN Related
    Region Orientation (Struggle with this, S2 related)
    Culture training (We have an Iraqi Professor, very good source)

    I will add to the list based on what I have seen here

    Route and Area Recon
    Bilateral Talks....scenario and classes(Both soldier and Leader)

    What else?
    Like some suggestions for simple reads for them. I would like for them to read The Ugly American, comments on that are welcome.

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    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Parochialism is more damaging to us than AQ et.al. ever will be...
    Spot on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    There is no substitute for UXO and/or IED/IEDD training. One cannot and does not train EOD from Powerpoint. It's hands on or death.

    The courses from LE, Army, Marines and Navy are one in the same. 'bout time we realized that at the end of each day, we are still on the same team - Officers or NCOs, Army or Marines.

    This is not a joke.
    Those whose experience or knowledge base is only powerpoint deep scare me. I usually get out of their SDZ as fast as possible. It's like demo. There's the classroom calculations then there's the emplacement. If you don't know how to emplace the boom boom on the bridge, I don't care how good you are at the Sheffield Method.

    Your last part is something I live every day. I teach at "The" Armor School. I have USMC, US Army, and other nation students in my classes. It isn't the US Army Armor school, it's The Armor School. My Devilpups do the same things the Army guys do. It's one team, one endstate - to win.
    Example is better than precept.

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    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strategic LT View Post
    A collaborative effort by the PSGs and LTs in my unit have come up with a list of things they would like to accomplish so far.

    CLS refresher.....scenario based
    Land Nav....open terrain and urban (we will use Killeen)
    Individual weapons refreshers
    Crew serve weapons refreshers
    Battle Drills
    Convoy Trainer (Interactive trainer, uses tv screens etc.)
    IED training....scenario based

    none of which are COIN concepts, but your regular soldier skills

    COIN Related
    Region Orientation (Struggle with this, S2 related)
    Culture training (We have an Iraqi Professor, very good source)

    I will add to the list based on what I have seen here

    Route and Area Recon
    Bilateral Talks....scenario and classes(Both soldier and Leader)

    What else?
    Like some suggestions for simple reads for them. I would like for them to read The Ugly American, comments on that are welcome.

    Reporting:
    Contact Report
    "Red, Red 1,
    Contact,
    East,
    RPG,
    OUT"

    Spot Reports:
    "Xray, Red 1,
    Slant 4,
    ES 123456,
    Contact with 1 RPG team,
    establishing support by fire position, maneuvering 1 section to western flank, over"
    Example is better than precept.

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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTK View Post
    Spot on.



    Those whose experience or knowledge base is only powerpoint deep scare me. I usually get out of their SDZ as fast as possible. It's like demo. There's the classroom calculations then there's the emplacement. If you don't know how to emplace the boom boom on the bridge, I don't care how good you are at the Sheffield Method.

    Your last part is something I live every day. I teach at "The" Armor School. I have USMC, US Army, and other nation students in my classes. It isn't the US Army Armor school, it's The Armor School. My Devilpups do the same things the Army guys do. It's one team, one endstate - to win.
    Hey RTK,

    Go Army !
    Sorry about that

    I'm often disgusted at hearing inexperienced people I know telling me they're (as an indivdual) ready, only to drop them from the courses we teach.

    "none of us is as good as all of us."

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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTK View Post
    Reporting:
    Contact Report
    "Red, Red 1,
    Contact,
    East,
    RPG,
    OUT"

    Spot Reports:
    "Xray, Red 1,
    Slant 4,
    ES 123456,
    Contact with 1 RPG team,
    establishing support by fire position, maneuvering 1 section to western flank, over"

    Let It Rain !
    Last edited by Stan; 01-09-2008 at 08:23 PM.

  17. #17
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophon View Post
    Have you taken those courses? Do you really think staring at a computer screen trains a Marine to clear an M240 jam under fire? Or give a buddy a needle decompression under fire? Those things require muscle memory. Getting kids to care about media relations and big picture, war on terror adversaries requires involved leadership, something Marinenet takes out of the training process. Quality in training is being completely destroyed by expediency. The only saving grace of the PTP Marinenet courses is that the test is one question, "Did you view the course?", so the Marine can simply skip to the test, click yes, and not waste his time.
    Here's my question to you: What are you doing to raise the bar in your Devilpups' training? How are you enhancing their training experience?

    I take issue with the highlighted and underlined sentence. It sounds as if The "system" is bringing you down, which, to be honest with you, is a pretty weak excuse. Here's a list of questions designed to determine training planning and strategy at your level. It should help you identify weaknesses within your own plan that you can affect at your level.

    -What restrictions or parameters are being placed upon you as a leader that prevents you from conducting good training at your lowest organizational level?
    -Further, if there are restrictions, what actions are you taking as a leader to counter those restrictions?
    -What do motorpool operations look like in your unit? Is it four guys doing the work in the platoon while the balance talks about what they did last weekend? -How involved do your NCOs get in the training?
    -How involved do you get in the training?
    - How far out do you plan training?
    -What guidance do you give them for individual, crew, section, and platoon collective training?
    -Does the Company have a Mission Essential Task List?
    -Have you determined the platoon critical tasks that support the Company METL?
    -Have you conducted METL crosswalk to the individual task level?
    - Do you have training themes for the month (ie. We'll work on individual tasks supporting the Comapny's Offensive METL task for the month of March)
    -What is your training strategy to train your Marines/Soldiers at the individual level that will feed into the crew/section/platoon collective tasks?

    Here's why I write this: I'm of the opinion that training management has taken a backseat in the last 5 years to the point where few remember how to do it anymore. This is one of those "if the shoe fits" catagories. If you've got sound answers to all of the above questions, then you're tracking well. If you don't, you're tracking like an aborted TOW Missle.

    I see Stan in the area. Perhaps an old(er) NCO could give some good training management pearls of wisdom....
    Example is better than precept.

  18. #18
    Council Member Strategic LT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTK View Post
    -What restrictions or parameters are being placed upon you as a leader that prevents you from conducting good training at your lowest organizational level?
    -Further, if there are restrictions, what actions are you taking as a leader to counter those restrictions?
    -What do motorpool operations look like in your unit? Is it four guys doing the work in the platoon while the balance talks about what they did last weekend? -How involved do your NCOs get in the training?
    -How involved do you get in the training?
    - How far out do you plan training?
    -What guidance do you give them for individual, crew, section, and platoon collective training?
    -Does the Company have a Mission Essential Task List?
    -Have you determined the platoon critical tasks that support the Company METL?
    -Have you conducted METL crosswalk to the individual task level?
    - Do you have training themes for the month (ie. We'll work on individual tasks supporting the Comapny's Offensive METL task for the month of March)
    -What is your training strategy to train your Marines/Soldiers at the individual level that will feed into the crew/section/platoon collective tasks?

    Here's why I write this: I'm of the opinion that training management has taken a backseat in the last 5 years to the point where few remember how to do it anymore.
    You are spot on with your comments on training management. Few commanders are doing it. The excuse you often hear is "there is not enough time, we deploy in only a 10,9,8,7,6.... months" What it really is, is piss-poor time management. I have been through two commanders and neither one of them were wizards when it came to planning training. As the XO this makes the my job even harder because I don't have the buffer built in that allows me to resource the training to the max. I have essentially resorted to driving training by getting resources and forcing the commander to plan training for it. Anyway, where was I.....
    Last edited by Strategic LT; 09-08-2007 at 09:03 PM.

  19. #19
    Council Member Strategic LT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Let It Rain !
    Had to add an avatar, since the big guns were put on display!

  20. #20
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Totally agree - and

    Quote Originally Posted by Strategic LT View Post
    You are spot on with your comments on training management. Few commanders are doing it. The excuse you often hear is "there is not enough time, we deploy in only a 10,9,8,7,6.... months".....
    I'd add that what many also fail to do is realize that not only can they train in theater, they must. You owe it to the kids to do that even though they'd rather you did not. I'd also point out that most of them can pick up the important things -- the critically important basics -- pretty quickly and integration instead of subject tackling is the key.

    You and RTK got it; training is everything is training and all that.

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