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Thread: Personal Security Teams for BN COs

  1. #21
    Council Member tequila's Avatar
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    There's a reason it's called Hide & Slide.

  2. #22
    Council Member sgmgrumpy's Avatar
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    neowolfe

    Not sure why you posted such a degrading remark about your leadership and fellow soldiers, but from looking at your profile, I would say your probably going to have a short career in the Army.

  3. #23
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Proving that there is justice in the world and

    that what goes around comes around.

    IOW, I suspect SGM Grumpy is ko-rect...

  4. #24
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    wups my bad didnt mean to piss off the highers ill be going now. would one of you kindly direct me to a board where the lower end of the pay table can speak freely
    Last edited by neowolfe; 09-17-2007 at 03:18 AM.

  5. #25
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neowolfe View Post
    When headquarters asked my company to give up a few guys for PSD detail we sent them all our ####bags lol Its not like the LTC and Sergeant Major go out much anyways.


    Just a quick question: With your immense Army knowledge from 2 years active duty, how did you conclude that your Senior Officers and NCOs Don't get out much and don't deserve a professional PSD?

    Tell me who your SGM is, we'll see that your duties are adjusted accordingly

    Quote Originally Posted by neowolfe View Post
    wups my bad didnt mean to piss off the highers ill be going now. would one of you kindly direct me to a board where the lower end of the pay table can speak freely
    You WERE on a forum where free speech is authorized, but you chose to pathetically post Bravo Sierra among professionals.

    I hereby direct you to get out of my Army

  6. #26
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neowolfe View Post
    wups my bad didnt mean to piss off the highers ill be going now. would one of you kindly direct me to a board where the lower end of the pay table can speak freely
    Sure, how about here.

    Let's break down your four posts thus far:

    1. First one was an OPSEC issue in the making.

    2. Second one was a poor technical suggestion considering the given equipment.

    3. Third one was a smart-assed comment.

    4. Forth was a confirmation that you don't see the bigger picture.

    You haven't added anything to the forum. You're no loss to the Council. Pack your bags and move along.
    Example is better than precept.

  7. #27
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTK View Post
    Sure, how about here.
    Hey, Just a cotton pickin' second...my 7-year-old daughter plays there

    Besides, there's no forum

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by neowolfe View Post
    When headquarters asked my company to give up a few guys for PSD detail we sent them all our ####bags lol Its not like the LTC and Sergeant Major go out much anyways.
    You don't even have to read the whole thing, just read the preface and introduction to LTC Nagl's book "Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife" and then try and tell us he didn't get out much.

    Too bad the Army won't take a 47 yr old man like me, I'd gladly replace you. Thanks for being a Soldier, but try to show more respect for your amazing, incredibly intelligent, and honorable leaders.

  9. #29
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    Now I know LTC Nagl got out quite a bit, as do many other LTCs and SGMs...but do they all? I'm not pointing fingers, nor casting aspersions on anyone's bravery, but speculating on what are organizational realities.

    One of the things that was noticeable during Vietnam by 1968-69 was the tendency of multiple-tour senior NCOs to find jobs in the rear...because they'd "been there and done that" enough times that they were wearing thin. Not all of them did, but there were enough that it got noticed. Perhaps our young trooper had the misfortune to serve in a unit that had some burned-out senior leaders. It does happen. And it also provides us with an example of what burned-out leadership can do to morale within an organization. It could also provide us with an example of how a poorly-motivated soldier can paint an organization. I don't assume that he's right in his comment, but at the same time history suggests that he may not be totally wrong.

    Now before anyone saddles up their rant horse and sounds the charge, consider this: our force profile is VERY different from what it was in the 1960s. The troops are more motivated, better educated, and all that. But considering their generational profile they may prove less tolerant of those they feel might be doing less than they should...especially in leadership positions. The key word there is "feel." It's all a matter of perception, and we know how perception can shape "reality" in many ways.

    My $.02 for the day.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

  10. #30
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Perception, and a lack of discipline

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    Now I know LTC Nagl got out quite a bit, as do many other LTCs and SGMs...but do they all? I'm not pointing fingers, nor casting aspersions on anyone's bravery, but speculating on what are organizational realities.

    One of the things that was noticeable during Vietnam by 1968-69 was the tendency of multiple-tour senior NCOs to find jobs in the rear...because they'd "been there and done that" enough times that they were wearing thin. Not all of them did, but there were enough that it got noticed. Perhaps our young trooper had the misfortune to serve in a unit that had some burned-out senior leaders. It does happen. And it also provides us with an example of what burned-out leadership can do to morale within an organization. It could also provide us with an example of how a poorly-motivated soldier can paint an organization. I don't assume that he's right in his comment, but at the same time history suggests that he may not be totally wrong.

    Now before anyone saddles up their rant horse and sounds the charge, consider this: our force profile is VERY different from what it was in the 1960s. The troops are more motivated, better educated, and all that. But considering their generational profile they may prove less tolerant of those they feel might be doing less than they should...especially in leadership positions. The key word there is "feel." It's all a matter of perception, and we know how perception can shape "reality" in many ways.

    My $.02 for the day.
    Steve, I agree with you. Not all 0-5s and E-9s get out and about. However, a PSD is not dispatched just the same in today's Army, especially in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    The visiting senior Os and Es in Goma with Tom and I had an impressive PSD, and rightfully so. Did they need a PSD ? How would I know ? Am I right to question Army procedures and bitch in an open forum ? No, I am not.

    What an Army CO does when given a tasking should not include sending duds on a PSD detail or a high visibility team anywhere on God's green earth.

    I'll stop here by saying that this is policy, and an individual with 2 years in enlisted service has little-to-no idea what that entails. It does come later with years of time in service and rank.

    Perception or understanding ?

    I welcome his supported response instead of a 4-post-bitchin'-session, and I'm certain that his first 6 months in Iraq (his words) will change his views forever.

    Regards, Stan

  11. #31
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    I know where you're coming from, Stan. And I agree about a lack of discipline. Just wanted to toss out a touch of different perspective for our non-military readers and the like...

    For the record, I'm not crazy about drive-by posters, either. One liners may be cute for blog responses or chat rooms, but they suck major pond scum when it comes to message board conversations. This kid may or may not stick around long enough to "get it," but hopefully others will.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

  12. #32
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    Default Does not reflect my experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    Now I know LTC Nagl got out quite a bit, as do many other LTCs and SGMs...but do they all? I'm not pointing fingers, nor casting aspersions on anyone's bravery, but speculating on what are organizational realities.
    I'll state that in the course of two tours and 29 months in Iraq, all maneuver commanders up to BDE level were out almost daily, maybe taking 1 day off a week. This applies under under 1AD, 2ACR, 101st ABN(AA), 172d Stryker, 1 MEF, and 2 MEF.

    I have never seen the "helicopter commanders" of 'Nam lore or anything else. My OIF 1 commander patrolled twice daily and was at the forefront of every fight against the Sadr Militia in April-June 2004. My OIF 05-07 commander was out daily and lived in the same compound with his IA BDE CDR and town mayor in Tal Afar. I lived an outpost in the Tal Afar Granary with my IA BN CDR.

    I never saw any other units where the commander could be described as a fobbit. The logistics CO's didn't get out as much, but I know they took convoys as well. They also didn't have responsibilities for terrain outside the wire. Log units may be different, but almost every combat arms commander I have seen is out there in his sector almost daily up to BDE Level. Even the Division GO's were flying and accompanying patrols several times a week. BG Neller, 1 MEF ADC, was constantly on the road in Anbar with his PSD. BG Oates in the 101st was the same.

    I just haven't seen it. Maybe there are a few "fobbit" maneuver commanders out there, but it's by far not the norm.

    Rob, RTK, and other soldiers may want to chime in with their experiences.
    Last edited by Cavguy; 09-17-2007 at 03:05 PM.
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
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  13. #33
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    Default Good to hear, Cav!

    Always good to get as many perspectives in as possible. Like I said, I wasn't pointing fingers but rather probing for posts like yours. My contention has always been that the Army (at least at the sharp edge of things) is learning MUCH faster this time around than they have during any other conflict in their history, and it's good to see field-side experiences backing this idea up.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

  14. #34
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    Always good to get as many perspectives in as possible. Like I said, I wasn't pointing fingers but rather probing for posts like yours. My contention has always been that the Army (at least at the sharp edge of things) is learning MUCH faster this time around than they have during any other conflict in their history, and it's good to see field-side experiences backing this idea up.
    I heard the lore of the helicopter CO's from ROTC forward, and I think it was beaten into the post-Vietnam generation to lead from the front as one of the carryovers from the frustrated junior commanders in Nam.
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
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  15. #35
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cavguy View Post

    Rob, RTK, and other soldiers may want to chime in with their experiences.
    Both OIF I and OIF III I saw the Squadron and Regimental commanders and CSms in the populace daily. Very seldom were they not "outside the wire." They led from the front, engaged the populace, got blown up quite a bit, and did their jobs as commanders and Soldiers. I'd follow them anywhere because of it.
    Example is better than precept.

  16. #36
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Steve's comments re: Viet Nam are fairly accurate

    but were very much point of time in the war, unit and type organization peculiar. Many of those who tried to scuttle to the rear were not so much multiple tour types but WW II and Korean veterans who had been there and done that in a prior war -- and who were old, out of shape and were tactically rusty because they had been hiding out in homesteading jobs in the odd nooks and crannies of the Army for years. In short, most line units were better off without them. The Army is over-ranked in any event (IMO).

    Their numbers are also overstated. Senior officers and NCOs hugging the Fire Bases and Base Camps or seeking rear area jobs was a minor issue but it was virtually non-existent in 65-66 and got only slightly worse as each succeeding rotation came in and the Army dipped further in the pool of RC unit advisers, multi year Recruiting tour types and others who had been away from TOE units for many years and who were considerably older than the norm and than is true today. Even so, many of those old guys got out with great frequency. Far more myths in the 'history' books about Viet Nam than there should be...

    Phone calls and e-mails from my son when deployed to both the 'Stan and Iraq the last five years agree with RTK. Most Commanders and senior NCOs were getting out a great deal and generally not in the interfering mode. The few that did not are again a unit personality / individual proclivity problem.

    To corroborate another thing Steve said, as a long time observer of the scene, post Viet Nam there were accessions in the 70s of what would eventually be senior NCOs in the 90s that were of less than stellar quality. Most of them are now gone but a few are still in. They got promoted due to keeping their nose clean and doing little but surviving long enough to get time in grade and get relatively easy promotions. Their successors, recruited in the 80s and 90s are a different kettle of fish entirely. Most are sharp and go-getters.

    Still, there will always those who believe as did Eisenhower's Army Service Force Commander at the end of WW II; "Now we can get back to real soldiering" or Grand Duke Constantine Petrovich Romanov; "I detest war, it spoils armies." They like the neatness and order of peacetime 'soldiering' and of a large conventional opponent they can talk about and not have to fight. COIN is messy and everyone is not really flexible enough to cope. Usually those types get spotted and forced to behave properly but a few will always slip through.

    They just need to get nailed by Commanders and other Senior NCOs.

  17. #37
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    Default concur with Cavguy, RTK et al

    I will echo Cavguy and RTK, from my view during OEF IV and OIF III, CDRs and CSMs were out on a regular basis. Leading from the front as they should.

    DWF

  18. #38
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Still, there will always those who believe as did Eisenhower's Army Service Force Commander at the end of WW II; "Now we can get back to real soldiering" or Grand Duke Constantine Petrovich Romanov; "I detest war, it spoils armies."
    Can you point me to a book source for these quotes - google has failed me. I want to use them in a paper.
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
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  19. #39
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default I've serve with a couple, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    To corroborate another thing Steve said, as a long time observer of the scene, post Viet Nam there were accessions in the 70s of what would eventually be senior NCOs in the 90s that were of less than stellar quality. Most of them are now gone but a few are still in. They got promoted due to keeping their nose clean and doing little but surviving long enough to get time in grade and get relatively easy promotions. Their successors, recruited in the 80s and 90s are a different kettle of fish entirely. Most are sharp and go-getters.
    Hey Ken, Great detailed post !
    Ya know, those would be some real crusty ol' folks now, if they were senior NCOs in the 90s

    Are they allowed to still be around 25 years later

    Jokes aside, you hit the nail on the head. The senior NCOs from my days in the early 70s were a sad case for the Army as well as for me in an ADA Battery.

    The caliber of people we have today will not stand for Os and Es hangin' around watching the others work - as it should be today.

    Regards, Stan

  20. #40
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default The CG ASF, Paris, quote is from

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavguy View Post
    Can you point me to a book source for these quotes - google has failed me. I want to use them in a paper.
    The War Between the Generals (Irving). Unfortunately, I gave my copy to one of my sons and I can't give you the page number. Irving has been discredited as a holocaust denier and he's sort of anti UK /US in tone but that book came out long before he went off the deep end and while some of it has been refuted, most agree his anecdotes are probably correct because that was his specialty as an amateur historian; gossip. I should have said "or words to that effect," as well -- my quote was accurate in intent but it's been a while, 25 years or so, since I read the book so it's probably not verbatim. That recollection, like the source of the other is good enough for a forum but not for a paper.

    The Grand Duke Constantine quote is from Strategy Page (LINK). Hutchinson gets wild now and then but he does do a lot of research, I suspect it's probably true. Like you, I had no luck on Google but I did turn up this LINK to a paper that suggests he might well have said that and more...

    The Wikipedia article would seem to bear that out... LINK. Not much help and I'm sure you saw both.

    If I can get hold of the kid, I'll get him to check the book and I'll also look for more on the Romanov quote.

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