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  1. #1
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    Marc,

    I appreciate your response, you are smart and easy to deal with.

    I would like to clarify that that the first part about Jominian and Clausewitzian war theory was just an extrapolation of two of history's most important guides, it was simplistic and narrow to clarify a cultural tendency, rather than complete and absolute explanations. But enough of that.

    The probing of your brain is going to advance on two lines. Please continue to make on the spot corrections.

    My argument in constructing systems of this kind is, as hinted and partly mentioned before, that it will necessarily deal with many of the same missions, have many of the same tools and live with the legacy of previous doctrines being accepted because they work in certain types of situations, according to experience. This means that the entire logic is not likely to change. Any new theory should validate previous success and failure, while of course taking into account chance, 'friction', incomplete knowledge, etc. But I would argue that most people do not consciously deal with the world by fitting it into a complete theoretical construct of logic, and for good reason. Here enters differences in how we view the world and correspondingly deal with it. More importantly, this is where it becomes so important to understand how people learn and apply. Like you said, containers of symbols... and principles, outlooks, and so on.

    It seems to me that there are two threads relevant here in regards to systems. One, our understanding of the world. Second, how we decide to deal with it. Both influence each other.

    The fundamental nature of the world has not changed. Look at it from a personal perspective. Show the world by explaining how people have adapted and needs combine to work as catalysts for creating value systems, administration, military forces, etc. You have history and personal experiences that prove you right. Now explain why doctrine in the past has worked and what their usage was, examplify. Now note the tasks that are likely to be faced in the future, and motivate why they are likely (should be evident from the understanding you created and the circumstances you show), and point out possible circumstances. But seeing and willing to change is not enough, we must know how we can have an effect on the world. Explain how systemic understanding is created and write, perhaps, guiding principles and, if necessary, what to focus on for the task at hand, etc. Compare the validity and difference of both old and new doctrine. Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Training to implement.

    Organizational change is different in how you implement it. I think that what it boils down to is motivating those with the relevant power to order necessary changes and training to take place as fits the organizational structure, which may need to be altered. Punish those who refuse to train for the new tasks. Or destroy and create anew. There are other ways, and possibly better. Have to take leadership, power, and a bunch of other things into consideration, including money.

    This was just an example. The points are: 1. Change understanding of world. 2. Identify needs, motivation, etc, for change. 3. Change. And you do all three at once, with various emphasis. OODA. Of course, there are other models for guiding this.

    Then again, it is not that simple, because in teaching the understanding and training for dealing with it, you have to work with people who has to 1. accept, 2. adapt. And how you express it all depends on who you are writing for.

    Do you agree or not? How would you change you personal understanding and life philosophy?

    The second thread of the probing is a follow-on to how theoretical constructs are used. What is your understanding of the nature of metaphors, clichés and catch phrases as regards their effects?

    Quote Originally Posted by marct
    And, even if we wanted to, how many people would reject all changes, regardless of how well they may be warranted?

    [...] And then what? Then we would have to sell that model to people who had no idea what we were talking about, who perceived it as a model put together by a bunch of Ivory Tower parlour pinks who had never been in combat, and who would say "Damn, Westmoreland's ghost is alive and well - freakin' computers!".
    Not if you get them to write it themselves and receive authority by the opinions of flexible and experienced minds in good standing in the communities.
    If everyone rejects it, maybe it was not the best way? If people continue to see the message and adopt it, you may sooner or later succeed where the methodology and understanding you have prescribed fits. There is always a generational shift going on.

    People and organizations have changed in the past. What is needed is an understanding, goals, then it is all about how to get it implemented.

    Martin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    The second thread of the probing is a follow-on to how theoretical constructs are used. What is your understanding of the nature of metaphors, clichés and catch phrases as regards their effects?
    I know it is lame to quote myself, but I just had to give an example from last night.

    Quote Originally Posted by myself
    We swim in the same water as the guerilla. Poop muddles the water. Cut the bull#### out so we don't choke and the water remains clear, at least in our end of the pool.

  3. #3
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Default Another dissertation!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    The probing of your brain is going to advance on two lines. Please continue to make on the spot corrections.....

    It seems to me that there are two threads relevant here in regards to systems. One, our understanding of the world. Second, how we decide to deal with it. Both influence each other.
    In general, I would agree with that but extend it a touch more. We, as individuals, have multiple "maps" of component parts of reality, some of which overlap. Each of these maps is "embedded" within institutions (in Malinowski's sense of the term: they don't have to be actual organizations). Institutions are differentially embedded within social organizational entities such as schools, branches, units etc. These organizations are, in turn, embedded in higher order systems - e.g. politics, economics, etc. Often "how we understand the world" implies "how we decide to deal with it" since the logics of "right action" are inherent in the formulation of a mapping of action potentials.

    Sorry if this is osunding overtly academic, but it is getting pretty technical <wry grin>. In plain English, how we see the world implies what we can do in the world and both of these potentials are bounded by our social and cultural environments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    The fundamental nature of the world has not changed. Look at it from a personal perspective. Show the world by explaining how people have adapted and needs combine to work as catalysts for creating value systems, administration, military forces, etc. You have history and personal experiences that prove you right. Now explain why doctrine in the past has worked and what their usage was, examplify. Now note the tasks that are likely to be faced in the future, and motivate why they are likely (should be evident from the understanding you created and the circumstances you show), and point out possible circumstances.
    About that comment of mine about being embedded in a socio-cultural environment. What you suggest is laudable but, and it's a big but, I have already written one dissertation. What you are suggesting is a major undertaking and I do have to make a living so that I can support my cats (and my wife) in the style to which they have become accustomed since I finished my last dissertation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Organizational change is different in how you implement it. I think that what it boils down to is motivating those with the relevant power to order necessary changes and training to take place as fits the organizational structure, which may need to be altered. Punish those who refuse to train for the new tasks. Or destroy and create anew. There are other ways, and possibly better. Have to take leadership, power, and a bunch of other things into consideration, including money.
    Okay, as part of my first dissertation, I had to spend a fair amount of time dealing with Bussiness Process Re-engineering - you know, implementing organizational cultural changes. In order to make any reorganization work, you need two things: a "champion" at the highest levels who provides a solid vision of what changes will be made, and a lot of buy-in at the lower levels in the organization. Most of the time, changes are evolutionary not revolutionary, and changes can only be made in areas controlled by the organization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Do you agree or not? How would you change you personal understanding and life philosophy?
    I would have to say that changing personal understandings is quite different from changing organizational understandings. Changing an entire "life philosophy" (a weltanschuung?) is even more tricky. I do know how to do it, but that's the subject of another essay .

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    The second thread of the probing is a follow-on to how theoretical constructs are used. What is your understanding of the nature of metaphors, clichés and catch phrases as regards their effects?
    I tend to draw on both Charles Pierce's concept fo semiotics and on Dawkin's ideas of memes. That's the short answer <wry grin>. For the longer version, I would say that theoretical concepts are used as operators in the mind to manipulate sensory data into something that "makes sense" even though it probably isn't "true". I view clichés and catch phrases as "rule of thumb" transformations of sensory data, while metaphors and analogies I consider to be more formalized operations of the mind.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

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    I guess it would be more beneficial to ask smaller questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    In general, I would agree with that but extend it a touch more. We, as individuals, have multiple "maps" of component parts of reality, some of which overlap. Each of these maps is "embedded" within institutions (in Malinowski's sense of the term: they don't have to be actual organizations).
    I will have to ponder that some more in my little head. Have you considered psychological/emotional consequences of the integration, or rather the possible lack thereof, of these maps/understandings? (side note: I made up a word for something similar to this before)

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Institutions are differentially embedded within social organizational entities such as schools, branches, units etc. These organizations are, in turn, embedded in higher order systems - e.g. politics, economics, etc. Often "how we understand the world" implies "how we decide to deal with it" since the logics of "right action" are inherent in the formulation of a mapping of action potentials.
    EXACTLY!!

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Okay, as part of my first dissertation, I had to spend a fair amount of time dealing with Bussiness Process Re-engineering - you know, implementing organizational cultural changes. In order to make any reorganization work, you need two things: a "champion" at the highest levels who provides a solid vision of what changes will be made, and a lot of buy-in at the lower levels in the organization. Most of the time, changes are evolutionary not revolutionary, and changes can only be made in areas controlled by the organization.

    I would have to say that changing personal understandings is quite different from changing organizational understandings. Changing an entire "life philosophy" (a weltanschuung?) is even more tricky. I do know how to do it, but that's the subject of another essay .
    So, prove it!
    Seriously though, even if you will not solve all my problems, I appreciate showing pieces of your knowledge.

    Regarding the differences between changing them, I agree, but you have to start somewhere... I have "a bit" of experience in personal change and functioning, that was more for getting somebody else's perspective and widen my understanding of methodology, etc. As for organizational change, that I have not studied as much, but I think it is an extremely important follow on which varies a lot with the organizational structure and purpose, which is why I tried to move a bit in that direction. I hope you don't mind if I come up with more specific questions in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    I tend to draw on both Charles Pierce's concept fo semiotics and on Dawkin's ideas of memes. That's the short answer <wry grin>. For the longer version, I would say that theoretical concepts are used as operators in the mind to manipulate sensory data into something that "makes sense" even though it probably isn't "true". I view clichés and catch phrases as "rule of thumb" transformations of sensory data, while metaphors and analogies I consider to be more formalized operations of the mind.

    Marc
    Okay, thanks.

    Martin

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I guess it would be more beneficial to ask smaller questions.
    LOLOL - Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I will have to ponder that some more in my little head. Have you considered psychological/emotional consequences of the integration, or rather the possible lack thereof, of these maps/understandings? (side note: I made up a word for something similar to this before)
    Yup. It's actually built right into fairly standard phenomenology. Take a look at Peter Berger's work (e.g. The Sacred Canopy).

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    So, prove it!
    Seriously though, even if you will not solve all my problems, I appreciate showing pieces of your knowledge.
    <truly evil grin>Well, I could send you a copy of my dissertation ( ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Regarding the differences between changing them, I agree, but you have to start somewhere... I have "a bit" of experience in personal change and functioning, that was more for getting somebody else's perspective and widen my understanding of methodology, etc.
    No sweat . As far as personal methodologies are concerned, there are so many of them it's almost ridiculous! It does, however, seem to all boil down to using personalized symbol systems as a "user interface" to reprogram individual level neurology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    As for organizational change, that I have not studied as much, but I think it is an extremely important follow on which varies a lot with the organizational structure and purpose, which is why I tried to move a bit in that direction. I hope you don't mind if I come up with more specific questions in the future.
    Sure, although we may want to move this entire part of the CoG thread over into the "personal rant" area of the members only forum since we are now totally off topic.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Yup. It's actually built right into fairly standard phenomenology. Take a look at Peter Berger's work (e.g. The Sacred Canopy).
    Oh thank God you didn't behead me. I was so annoyed with myself yesterday for making that question too quickly. I did think about this, but I do think that I should read up on the details and foundations for the "mapping" from the adherents' viewpoint. I'll pick up The Sacred Canopy. May I ask if it is Structure Mapping you are referring too? I have only heard it mentioned in regards to a small post about metaphors.

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    <truly evil grin>Well, I could send you a copy of my dissertation ( ).
    Please do! E-mail or snail mail? PM for details if you are serious.

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    No sweat . As far as personal methodologies are concerned, there are so many of them it's almost ridiculous! It does, however, seem to all boil down to using personalized symbol systems as a "user interface" to reprogram individual level neurology.
    Right. I have a theory about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Sure, although we may want to move this entire part of the CoG thread over into the "personal rant" area of the members only forum since we are now totally off topic.

    Marc
    I would argue that we are now going off topic from this thread, but we are discussing the foundations for force transformation in regards to a changing environment. Highly relevant.

    Okay, so I'm a nerd. Ranting done. Returning to regular schedule.

    Martin

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