Understanding Airmen

[Ken White]

you and I both know they did okay under Luftwaffe command and real good under Army command. Rotterdam was a fair operation, Crete, even though they won, was a disaster for them; they never made another jump.

They later occasionally outperformed other Wehrmacht light infantry (but not the Gebirgsjaegers) under Army command in France, Italy and Holland. That decline in performance late in the war was due to putting non-jumpers in the units and just hanging the title on 'em -- an Air Force decision.

Hope all's going well. Been there. Fortunately mine worked out okay, she bounced back and is again meaner'n a Water Moccasin...

[slapout9]

Now Ken... only Hitler thought Crete was a disaster. For them to take Crete was supposed to be impossible...but they did it when then concentrated on establishing an airhead which allowed them to be reinforced and then breakout and finish it. The army didn't even call them fallshimjager, they called them fallshimjagergrouppen or something like that. I know I can't spell either one but I will look it up later. It was the German Army that put non-airborne people into these grouppen whatchamacallits, basically truck infantry.

Thanks for asking about my better half. She finally went to sleep.

[Ken White]

You're thinking of the Kampfgruppe which the army formed out of Fallschirmjager and any other types of unit; sort of like a Task Force, they usually named them after the commander. Kampfgruppe Ramke did a goo job in Normandy IIRC.

'Fraid not on the Army loading up ersatz parachure units; it was the Luftwaffe that did it:

"The formation of the two parachute corps was only one part of a grand scheme devised by Göring for the formation of two parachute armies with a total strength of 100,000 men. The plan was approved by Hitler. Despite the fact that the days of large airborne operations were over, the various parachute units could still be classed as élites. Composed entirely of young volunteers from the draft (the average age of enlisted men in the 6th Parachute Regiment, for example, was 17 and a half), they were well armed and highly motivated."

LINK.

[wm]

but, one of the better German armored formations in WWII was the Hermann Goering Division in Italy, a Luftwaffe formation. It later went on to become a Luftwaffe armored corps, fighting very successfully on the Eastern front along the Vistula and in the Courland/Kurland Pocket.

BTW, I suspect Luftwaffe Field Marshall Albert Kesselring may have been the best commander the Germans had at the strategic-operational level.

Of course, none of the guys in those units jumped out of perfectly good airplanes after the units were created. They were probably manned with troops who had washed out of jump school during ground or tower week.

As the old story goes:
Jump school is a three weeks long. The first week is Ground Week, when they separate the men from the boys. The second week is Tower Week when they separate the men from the fools. The third week the fools jump out of the airplanes.

[slapout9]

wm, having been on one or two Air Force planes in my time it is debatable about them being perfectly good...which is why pilots wear parachutes

Ken, The group I was talking about was Schwere-Fallschirm-Infanteric-Kompanie. Loosely translated as Heavy Parachute Company which was developed by the Army. Also on 23 Feb. 1933 the first parachute unit was a POLICE unit. Polizeiabteilung Wecke authorized by Goring because of their experience in operating against Communist cells thus establishing some history of their capabilities with COIN operations.

Also I think we are splitting hairs about the leg infantry because the German Airborne Divisions just like their American counter parts had glider units and Air Landing units that were non-airborne qualified.

My source for the above information was "German Paratroopers" by Chris McNabb

[Ken White]

It's the pilots...

I thought what we were doing was splitting unnecessary hairs??? On a base level, the whole discussion is an exercise in alternative historical fiction.

I think you'll find the Heavy Parachute Company was the equivalent of our Weapons Companies, it was in the regular Fallschirmjager Battalions and thus was AF, not Army.

Yeah, they had glider troops; my point was that the later "Airborne" Divisions weren't really airborne and that was a Goring, not an Army, decision. Not that it made much difference in the end...

[wm]

wm, having been on one or two Air Force planes in my time it is debatable about them being perfectly good...which is why pilots wear parachutes

It's not the planes, they're okay.
It's the pilots...

I've been in a few USAF planes and a few of the airframes of the other services as well. I also used to test the POL products that each of the services put into their aircraft, both before they took off and after they crashed. I'm here to tell you, crappy POL is a good reason for everyone to have on a parachute when flying in a military aircraft.

[Tom Odom]

I've been in a few USAF planes and a few of the airframes of the other services as well. I also used to test the POL products that each of the services put into their aircraft, both before they took off and after they crashed. I'm here to tell you, crappy POL is a good reason for everyone to have on a parachute when flying in a military aircraft.

Planes are like wimmen; there's flaws in all of them. I am in twubble, now.

Besides you have not lived until you have flown 3rd world airlines or worse military air. Then one can always find a case or six of vodka on the flight deck of Russian or Ukranian Il76s and AN124s.

Best

Tom