FM3-24 and FM90-8

[skiguy]

I've read 3-24, I have not read 90-8 in it's entirety (if you suggest I do before I ask questions, then I will)
What's the difference between counterinsurgency and counterguerrilla? (please keep answers at a BA level. )

It appears 90-8 tells you that you must work with the civilians, but 3-24 takes it a step futher and tells you how. Is that accurate?
Are they being used together right now in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do they compliment (can't hink of better word) each other or are there contradictions between the two doctrines?

[SteveMetz]

I've read 3-24, I have not read 90-8 in it's entirety (if you suggest I do before I ask questions, then I will)
What's the difference between counterinsurgency and counterguerrilla? (please keep answers at a BA level. )

It appears 90-8 tells you that you must work with the civilians, but 3-24 takes it a step futher and tells you how. Is that accurate?
Are they being used together right now in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do they compliment (can't hink of better word) each other or are there contradictions between the two doctrines?

Counterguerrilla operations are predominantly military. They may or may not be associated with counterinsurgency since guerrillas can be used in association with conventional war as well. Insurgency (at least from my perspective) is a strategy used by nonstate groups who cannot attain their objectives with a purely military strategy. They may or may not seek to seize control of the state themselves. Because they are militarily weaker than the state, they try and focus the conflict in the psychological and political realms rather than the military. Hence counterinsurgency takes place across battlespaces (military, political, psychological) were counterguerrilla operations are predominantly military.

[selil]

Insurgency (at least from my perspective) is a strategy used by nonstate groups who cannot attain their objectives with a purely military strategy. They may or may not seek to seize control of the state themselves.

I would only add that insurgents are non-nation-state actors. They may self identify as patriot or citizen of a nation but are not acting on the behalf of a nation or state. Diplomatic legitimacy not being the same as political legitimacy.

[SteveMetz]

I would only add that insurgents are non-nation-state actors. They may self identify as patriot or citizen of a nation but are not acting on the behalf of a nation or state. Diplomatic legitimacy not being the same as political legitimacy.

I'm not clear on the distinction between "non-nation-state actors" and the phrase "nonstate groups" which I used.

[selil]

I'm not clear on the distinction between "non-nation-state actors" and the phrase "nonstate groups" which I used.

My thinking is that nation state, nonstate, non-nation-state, etc.. are over loaded terms. They have multiple meanings depending on context and use. In the current example an Iranian (insurgent) running around Iraq would not necessarily be sponsored by Iran directly. The ideology of the "insurgent" might be religious. An Iraqi (insurgent) running around Iraq would not necessarily be sponsored by Iraq directly. Once again the ideology or prime motivations aren't necessarily "state sponsored".

In the former example the "insurgent" from Iran can be fighting to "hurt" the United States. In the second example the "insurgent" can be fighting for national identity, religious, anti-imperialism, etc... There are non-state (not of any nation (Iranian insurgent), and non-nation-state (Iraqi motivated by internal strife). In either case the insurgent may not be representing a government, but one is likely foreign to the conflict.

I'll be honest I've been struggling with the concept and attempting to work this out in figuring the difference between an internal insurgent and a revolutionary. Thereby defining the difference between an insurgency and civil war. This begs the question if there is a difference what is it? Yes I know we've discussed this before but we haven't seen but a split in the opinions. Just to create even more issues I've seen the American revolution described as a guerrilla war fought partially as an insurgency.

[SteveMetz]

My thinking is that nation state, nonstate, non-nation-state, etc.. are over loaded terms. They have multiple meanings depending on context and use. In the current example an Iranian (insurgent) running around Iraq would not necessarily be sponsored by Iran directly. The ideology of the "insurgent" might be religious. An Iraqi (insurgent) running around Iraq would not necessarily be sponsored by Iraq directly. Once again the ideology or prime motivations aren't necessarily "state sponsored".

In the former example the "insurgent" from Iran can be fighting to "hurt" the United States. In the second example the "insurgent" can be fighting for national identity, religious, anti-imperialism, etc... There are non-state (not of any nation (Iranian insurgent), and non-nation-state (Iraqi motivated by internal strife). In either case the insurgent may not be representing a government, but one is likely foreign to the conflict.

I'll be honest I've been struggling with the concept and attempting to work this out in figuring the difference between an internal insurgent and a revolutionary. Thereby defining the difference between an insurgency and civil war. This begs the question if there is a difference what is it? Yes I know we've discussed this before but we haven't seen but a split in the opinions. Just to create even more issues I've seen the American revolution described as a guerrilla war fought partially as an insurgency.

I've never understood trying to decide if something is an insurgency or a civil war. Apples and oranges. Insurgency is a strategy. It is sometimes used in a civil war. Some insurgencies take place within a civil war. Not all civil wars entail insurgency. I also don't think it makes sense to define something as "a" guerrilla war. Guerrilla is an operational and tactical method. That's like describing something as an armored assault war. The American Revolution, like the Vietnam War, had conventional theaters of operation and insurgent theaters of operations.