Well said...Originally Posted by Shek
Well said...
...although....
I would have thought that in an environment where looting and resale is commonplace, there's almost nothing one could leave around as "bait" that civilians wouldn't think of carting off (weapons, munitions, other equipment)--and where the local political ramifications of this were potentially rather negative were a non-combatant to be shot by a sniper in such a trap.
That's my concern and there doesn't seem to be a shortage of guys planting IEDs who unquestioningly deserve to be shot.
An example of the "easier wrong"
"nobody seemed to think it was a problem as far as I know"
This seems to me to be exactly the problem. How on earth do we know why someone might be picking this stuff up? Are they simply some parent who doesn't want their kids finding it? Do they intend to turn it in to CF? Those scenarious are equally as valid as somone picking it up to make an IED. The simple fact is we don't know, so how do we justify killing them without any further information?
This is an example of a "type 1" or "false positive" error. If/when we make a mistake in this situation, we have set up a situation where we kill people innocent of any crime. The type 1 error is morally worse than the "type 2" or "false negative" error - which is why our entire justice system is based on the premise of "relasing 10 guilty men before 1 innocent man goes to jail."
Are Iraqi civilians worth less than this? Do we allow our fear of attacks on our soldiers to push us to create situations where we reduce risk to ourselves by accepting, if we're wrong about the intentions of those picking up the materials, the deaths of innocent people? That's not what I thought I the value of "courage" meant. And it's not "choosing the harder right." I hope we stop this, and soon.
Reaching Out
If one believes it is acceptable to kill those who would kill you, then it is likewise perfectly acceptable to want to continue living and lure such folks to a quick death. If one believes the US and coalition forces have no right being in Iraq, then little yellow sticky notes written in Arabic should be attached to the bait that read, "don't pick this item up or weapons will be discharged at you".
Tactic dubious, but ...
I wrote a little piece on this late last night:
http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/...nd-of-snipers/
I think that the tactic is dubious, but there is something bigger at stake going on here. With the Afghanistan snipers up on charges, with these snipers up on charges, and with the defensive posture of the ROE (and sniping mainly being an offensive tactic to begin with), I believe we are witnessing the end of snipers.
Who would want to go into this line of work now? As for the OPSEC implications of this discussion thread, I don't think much more can be revealed than is already in the seed article at the Post.
I don't really see the value in this. I doubt that you are going to get in leaders or any IED builders with this. That means you are either killing low level (expendable) nugs or guys who think that they can sell this stuff to the bad guys. I doubt that it is making a hell of a lot of difference.
SFC W
There's usually a couple of things to keep in mind when discussing sniper operations: historically the US military has taken a dim view of snipers in general; and the myths that the media has spun up by attaching the tag "sniper" to any whackjob who uses something larger than a Glock when committing crimes.
Looking back at Vietnam and the diversity of sniping operations there is an interesting exercise in this case (and I'm also going there to avoid drawing conclusions on recent events). In some regions they were used in a counter-sniper or precision shooting role; coming into play when fire was being received (a defensive role in many ways), while in others they were used to watch trails and engage insurgents (an offensive role). The roles themselves are generally neutral - it's command emphasis that has a major impact. Look at the 9th ID under Ewell to see some possibly major abuses of snipers, ROE, and metrics in general.
Another area that can come into question is selection and training, especially if there's a big push to increase sniper numbers. Most people really don't know or understand how much screening comes into play when selecting snipers...and I suspect some just don't want to know.
I'm sure folks like slapout might have some input as well, especially regarding LE snipers and considerations from their realm that might prove useful for COIN.
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Too few details to give an opinion but I will anyway...
This incident smells like a dead cat. Everything from "rushing the proceedings" to the snipers own actions of checking the dead guy?!? Why did they come down to "check out" the dead guy? Was this sniper team in support of a mission? Were they simply camped out in their hide site and decided to shoot someone? Who really knows but I am miffed as to why they came down out of their perch to check on the dead fellow and then take the time to supposedly plant wire on him? Again, this really smells suspicious... If I had mistakenly shot someone, I would probably come up with a better lie or cover-up, something like, "...after I dropped him his buddies came out and hauled off the 20 lbs. of SEMTEX and the bag of nails he was carrying, swear on my mother First Sergeant..." but I am not sure I would come down to the corpse and plant something?!?
I am sure more details will follow in the coming days and weeks.
I agree. Use of snipers to overwatch NAIs identified in the IPB process tied to clearly defined PIRs is probably a better way.
This throwing stuff in the middle of the road trying to lure bad guys in seems like chumming when you're trolling for minnows.
Example is better than precept.
Speculation, allegation, 'court documents'...
Slow news day is right.
I would not let any troops under my command do this.
By the way, I think snipers are excellent tool in small wars .
MNF press release
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
RELEASE No. 20070929-06
September 29, 2007
Court-martial results
Multi-National Division – Center PAO
BAGHDAD — A military panel found Sgt. Jorge Sandoval from Laredo, Texas, not guilty of murder Sept. 28.
Sandoval was found not guilty of murdering an unknown male April 27. He was also found not guilty of murdering an unknown male May 11; placing an AK-47 rifle on the body and failing to ensure humane treatment of the victim while he was being detained.
Sandoval was found guilty of placing command wire on the body of the male victim on April 27.
The military panel will reconvene Sept. 29 for Sandoval’s sentencing. He can face between six months to five years in prison.
On the contrary...
Since this tactic has been implemented, there has been a reduction in the number of IED's placed. You are on point with one statement, though... We are definately NOT going to get the IED builders with this approach. We will, however, psychologically affect all the emplacers and the collectors out there. Even IF we DIDN'T employ this tactic, just SAYING we use it causes a great psychological rift within the insurgency.
SGT Mills
I realize that in my time of military service we used flint and sticks and cultural sensitivity was something some men with certain sexual orientations engaged in, but never the less, I seriously doubt snipers will ever be phased out over perceptions of political correctness. If ol' Gunny Hatchcock were still alive and kicking, I would try to drag him into the discussion.
Just not used
Snipers won't be phased out ... they just won't be used. If you were a sniper in Afghanistan now and you saw two buddies taken up on charges of murder for a kill, what would you do?
Further, look for the defense of the two SF snipers in Afghanistan to sound something like this: "The target was agitated and dangerous, and the two local Afghans didn't have positive control over him, so the kill was justified." The defense WON'T be that the kill was justified because he was an enemy fighter.
Notice the important difference? And notice how important this is for future sniping operations?
I should have narrowed down the type of opinions I was seeking. I'm only seeking comments based on what is implicated or described in the article itself. We do a lot of speculation on these forums concerning tactics currently employed and mostly in the form of criticism with somewhat disregard to OPSEC. It almost can't be avoided. Personally, I think a tactic described in the article is perfectly fine under the right time and place and nobody should be under any type of investigation based on past tactics that were accepted and the press should be ashamed that they printed something that definitely has an OPSEC implication. I'm starting to notice a lot of slow news days out of Iraq lately and this is just a poor excuse to print something...anything. It is a little vacant to chill a thread because someone feels what is published in the press makes some people awkward discussing. If this held true throughout the forum than at least half these threads would be speculative in nature with OPSEC implications.
Last edited by Culpeper; 09-25-2007 at 02:19 AM.
"But suppose everybody on our side felt that way?"
"Then I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way. Wouldn't I?"
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