Vietnam War Collection: books plus

[Adam L]

Dam straight. We need to drop this Hearts and Minds BS once and for all. Templer said that the conflict in Malaya would be won in the "hearts and minds" or the Malayan people. Eventually enough people felt in their hearts and knew in their minds, they could never eject the British by military means. Same deal in Northern Ireland.

Personally, I think anyone who bands about the the words hearts and minds, has the credibility of someone who says "Cho Cho train" when discussing public transport. We need to stop using these words. They are no longer useful.

Very true, but what sound-bite must we replace it with now? I worry that at this time it is not feasible politically to discard them. I would agree they are not accurate or appropriate anymore, on the other hand I feel they are still very useful. That is, in a PR capacity. The public doesn't repsond well to non-fuzzified language. In many ways the term "hearts and minds" is an absolutely brilliant PR catch phrase. Nobody can say winning "hearts and minds" is a bad idea. Some may feel we should do it without weapons, but the goal is still a "good one." You're 100% correct Wilf. Unfortunately I don't think that will ever happen

Adam L

[John T. Fishel]

as I said on another thread.

What do we call this kind of war - LIC, OOTW, COIN, SASO, MOOTW, CT, or the other hundred names? Each has its partisans and its critics and both have good reasons for their positions. Templar coined a phrase that had real utility at the time but was more simplistic than what the Brits actually did. In fact, they won the hearts and minds of the Malay majority by promising and granting independence, which allowed them to to go after the Chinese insurgents. One might argue that the Brits followed a pop centric strategy toward the non-insurgent population (including many if not most of the Chinese) with the necessary enemy centric components against the insurgents. Thus, perhaps, the term to replace "hearts and minds" when describing a Small Wars or COIN strategy might be Pop Centric. Of course, its critics will attack it on semantic grounds as well.

Cheers

JohnT

[davidbfpo]

I'd suggest, on a quick thought, that loyalty is a suitable replacement word.

"Hearts & Minds" creeps into UK CT, sometimes in official documents and is quite inappropriate.

davidbfpo

[Ken White]

Actually, in Malaya the British -- correctly -- first went after the CTs and removed their ability to terrorize minds; then they terrorized the Malays and the Chinese civilians not playing CT by virtually eliminating Civil Rights and moving the majority of them into 'New Villages.' There was no winning of hearts and the minds involved were coerced, not coaxed.

The 'hearts and minds' tag line was introduced but the iron fist behind that velvet glove was what 'won' the COIN war. About 40K Commonwealth Troops and over half that number of British and Malay Police plus the concentration camps that were the New Villages fighting a max of 6-8K CTs and killing well over half of them from 1951 until late 1956 swung it -- hearts and minds were little if any involved.

The Malays were the people who wanted independence. Yet they were not involved in the insurgency to almost any extent. The Chinese were making money so mostly, they weren't big on independence. Few of them followed the CT line.

Chin Peng just used 'independence' as an excuse and in an attempt to replace impending, promised and on schedule independent but majority Malay rule with a Communist government headed by Chinese. Thus to say that the British won Malay hearts and minds when the Chinese were the insurgents is an obvious misnomer

The British and Malays then offered an amnesty to the CTs -- and a pretty sweeping one at that --and by late '56, the insurgency was pretty well whipped. Independence, proposed and effectively promised in 1948 at the formation of the Federation of Malaya and to be effective in 10 years finally came on 31 Aug 57, a year early but Malaysia as it exists today wasn't really formed until 1963.

I said it before and I'll say it again:

""Winning hearts and minds anywhere is a myth...That's the myth that needs to be dispelled and that's a lesson we did not learn in Viet Nam.""

""People will act in their perceived self interest and they will follow their heart -- but they will not let you win that heart. Nor do you need to...""

That opinion by me does not of course preclude others from using whatever terminology they wish. Even if they are wrong. Nor does that opinion obviate COIN techniques as espoused by most; it merely suggests that the effort be viewed realistically and not through idealistic prisms that can distort actions. That's the semantics part of it...

Words are important.

[Adam L]

I'd suggest, on a quick thought, that loyalty is a suitable replacement word.

"Hearts & Minds" creeps into UK CT, sometimes in official documents and is quite inappropriate.

davidbfpo

Yes, at times we may be looking for "loyalty," but a more accurate word would be obedience. The problem with loyalty is that it is a bit transparent given how concrete and narrow its definition is. "Hearts and Minds" is very amorphous. "Obedience" would be a PR nightmare. I remind everyone that the material we discuss in this forum, including this thread, is very open to the public. The openness and publicity of COIN development is certainly interesting and possibly beneficial to the area. On the other hand, perhaps the language, at the cost of accuracy, has to be made more suitable to the public's, especially the media's, taste.

Adam L

[Ken White]

...On the other hand, perhaps the language, at the cost of accuracy, has to be made more suitable to the public's, especially the media's, taste.

Adam L

You're totally correct in my view. I don't really have any problem at all with the media and the general public using the 'hearts and minds' tag; my concern is that working professionals and those actually involved in a COIN operation do not succumb to an amorphous concept that is not a plan and that is almost certain to fail.

One cannot bribe one's way to success in such conflicts (simplistic, I know but most will understand...).

[Mike in Hilo]

Love that last line, Ken.....Far away and long ago, lots of hamlets in various provinces where economic prosperity seemed almost incongruous (indicators include power tillers having replaced buffalo, proliferation of well-built, new stucco houses, etc. )--Yet they remained insecure to the GVN...VCI ran the hamlets, usually in tandem with the menacing effect of a nearby enemy base area. (one example, southern panhandle of my first province, Tay Ninh, with NVA base area across the border in Svay Rieng)...

Cheers,
Mike.

[Ken White]

the housing of friendly Montagnards who promptly penned their pigs in them and built new elevated thatched huts for themselves nearby...

We gotta admit the bicycle powered paddy irrigation water pump was a good idea, though.

We're getting smarter (not). Like the US standards hospital in Mosul we designed and donated with a built in O2 distribution system. Which will be great when and if someone starts producing O2 locally in a volume that will be adequate to fill the tanks...

[William F. Owen]

What do we call this kind of war - LIC, OOTW, COIN, SASO, MOOTW, CT, or the other hundred names?

Security Operations? - there are Combat Operations and Security Operations. Security Operations may involve some combat and vice versa. - Would that help?