Vietnam War Collection: books plus

[Old Eagle]

by Douglas Pike. Powerful thesis on the inability of the west to come to grips with the pol-mil strategy of the Peoples' Army. I thoroughly enjoyed the book when it was first published in the 80s. I understand that it has come under some academic criticism in the meantime.

My personal theory is that we are still on the road to victory in VN, and that General Electric and General Motors will prevail where General Westmoreland and General Abrams failed. (I stole this line from somewhere, but as usual, can't remember where.)

[Sasquatch]

Response.....

And helps me clarify my thoughts on the question. And a new one... (Later).

Actually, there are two educational goals,

1. What memoirs. etc will help the strategic corporals (buck Seargeants) do their jobs better, and avoid reinventing the wheel. (The old joke, we fought in Vietnam for one year seven times, or something like that).

2. What really was the broad picture there? How did we get into that mess, and why did it end so badly?

There does not seem to be a version of the Ricks/Woodward first draft of history out there.

A good example is the US Military institutional bias against Body Counts;

The weekly casualty reports on the six PM news is unlikely to have been the subject of family reminiscenses around the dinner table.

[outletclock]

Sasquatch:

Meant respectfully: If the goal is to

help the strategic corporals (buck Seargeants) do their jobs better, and avoid reinventing the wheel

, then for said purpose, why limit the query to Vietnam? Obviously how the US entered the Vietnam War is Vietnam-specific, but helping the strategic corporal would not seem to be. Perhaps books regarding Korea, to take one example, or just as well other conflicts, might be equally (or even more?) useful for said goal?

Regards
OC

[slapout9]

Link to the final and complete 7,000 page history of Vietnam published for the first time without any redactions.....and it is free


http://www.archives.gov/research/pentagon-papers/

[outletclock]

Regarding prong 2) of Sasquatch's prompt - i.e., the "big picture" and the proffered example of a fixation on body counts - I consider James Wirtz's article "Intelligence to Please" (Political Science Quarterly, 1991) to be excellent. It examines the discrepancy between MACV and CIA estimates of the enemy Order of Battle.

Regards
OC

[Steve Blair]

Sasquatch:

Meant respectfully: If the goal is to , then for said purpose, why limit the query to Vietnam? Obviously how the US entered the Vietnam War is Vietnam-specific, but helping the strategic corporal would not seem to be. Perhaps books regarding Korea, to take one example, or just as well other conflicts, might be equally (or even more?) useful for said goal?

Regards
OC

Vietnam is worthwhile in this context because it is noted for "burning up" an entire generation of NCOs. As far as memoirs go, it's hard to find good ones that deal exclusively with NCOs (in my opinion). VN memoirs tend to focus heavily on junior officers and draftees. There are a handful that cover NCOs, but they tended to come out earlier in the memoir cycle (say the early 1980s).

There are also theme cycles you have to be aware of when looking at literature about Vietnam. There are some interesting and strong bias swings. One of the interesting things about Kieth Nolan's books is that you can almost follow that cycle in his writing (although it's not strong bias as much as it is a slight shift in focus).

If you read Lanning, be sure to read both books.

I'd second Ken's list, with the addition of "Ringed in Steel" by Michael Mahler and just about any of Kieth Nolan's books.

And just to make an observation about one of JMM's books, "The 13th Valley" isn't about Ripcord. Kieth Nolan has a good book out about that situation, but DelVecchio's book (which I consider one of the finest novels about Vietnam, if not the finest) deals with a later fight.

[outletclock]

"Vietnam is worthwhile..."

I realized after I posted that that there is absolutely nothing wrong on any level about creating a Vietnam-specific canon, and that said post therefore really was not warranted. I guess the lesson for me is, Think before posting.

Regards
OC

[Ken White]

... I guess the lesson for me is, Think before posting.

Not just for thee, for all of us, I suspect.

However, I'm opposed. Aside from the fact that I'm congenitally unable to do so at all times, that sure would take a lot of spark out of life on the internet...

[motorfirebox]

Vietnam is... noted for "burning up" an entire generation of NCOs.

Any recommendations on that topic in particular?

[Old Eagle]

Yeah, I'd like to see some documentation on the burning NCO issue.

We also have to ensure that we don't hijack the thread. If there is specific fodder for the canon on the NCO issue, fire away!

[Ken White]

Yeah, I'd like to see some documentation on the burning NCO issue.

We also have to ensure that we don't hijack the thread. If there is specific fodder for the canon on the NCO issue, fire away!

I disagree with that place to the extent I won't even link to it -- but since it's you, I 'll tell you where documentation can be found.

I'll also defer to Steve Blair who's historical documentation knowledge certainly exceeds mine. My recollection is that overall VN KIA rate was about 1% while that for NCOs was 2.5% mostly SGT / SSG. That doesn't count the 1,400 or so fragging incidents, 80 some odd Officers or NCOs killed...

However, just for grins, the fact that NCOs were being burned out is amply shown by the simple existence of the NonCommissioned Officer Candidate Course -- and the fact that their KIA rate was over 5%.

For the other NCOs, the burnout came from a year in Viet Nam doing pretty much the same job (few promotions or incountry rotations for NCOs as opposed to Officers and Troops) and about 10 months in the States before returning to the SEA Follies. That was unsustainable so by 1968, third tours coming up and still shortfalls in mid and senior grade NCOs (and Officers, many of whom resigned -- the NCOs could not) led the US Army's fine Battalion Commanders by sheer necessity to lean on new LTs and SGTs and thus reinforced and enhanced micromanagement as a life style.

I know many NCOs with five tours all in combat units but I know few officers with more than two. Of course, I also know some NCOs who served in the period with no tours -- tankers and support folks, mostly -- and I know an Officer with six tours (one in Laos and one in [theoretically]Thailand). It was simply a function of the system and times. We do it a little better today, I hope...

The evidence of that burnout lies in the immediate post Viet Nam Army which suffered from a significant dearth of NCO leadership. Most were too tired to care.

[CR6]

in no particular order and without reference to previous posters. * indicates my recommendation of what will appeal most to the average Sergeant. YMMV:

*Street Without Joy Bernard Fall (Narrative of French involvement in Indochina)

Dereliction of Duty H.R. McMaster (Analysis of the role of the JCS at strategic level)

The Best and the Brightest David Halberstram (journalist’s account of American efforts in SVN)

A Bright Shining Lie Cornelius Mahoney Neil Sheehan (similar to TB&TB, but with through the lens of the career of John Paul Vann. Good stuff on the battle of Ap Bac)

*Dispatches Michael Herr (compilation of articles by a war correspondent)

Honorable Warrior Lewis Sorely (bio of CSA during Vietnam by an historian of the revisionist school)

*War comes to Long An Jeffery Rice (a micro view of insurgency and COIN in one SVN province)

*We Were Soldiers Once and Young Hal Moore and Joseph Galloway (no explanation needed, right?)

The Nightingale’s Song Robert Timberg (a neat discussion of the impact of Vietnam on American society up to and including Iran Contra told through the lives of 5 USNA grads who were active in security affairs and politics)

The Long Gray Line: The American Journey of West Point's Class of 1966 Rick Atkinson (follows West Points Class of ’66 through USMA to combat in Vietnam and beyond. Similar to TNS, but broader scope. Atkinson and Timberg are both journalists, but Timberg was also a Marine combat veteran of Vietnam. This informed his writing, which I preferred)

*Fields of Fire James Webb (fiction) (Follows a Marine rifle platoon leader through his tour. Written by Senator Jim Webb while attending Georgetown Law School, as a way of dealing with PTSD after a rough year in combat and separation from the USMC. Webb’s story is told in Timberg’s book)

*The Thirteenth Valley John Del Vecchio (fiction) (Written by a 101st veteran combat correspondent who also holds a degree from Lafayette College. This cat can write. Covers an infantry company operating in the A Shau Valley in latter part of the war. Excellent back story on characters and how their backgrounds both mesh and conflict under the strains of combat in the jungle.)

[outletclock]

First, Ken, thanks for your post of the other day.

Second, CR6 et al:

Sheehan's narrative of the Battle of Ap Bac was excellent. Yet I do think that one ought to, if possible, counterpoise it against the description of the battle in Mark Moyar, Triumph Forsaken. While not developed as in depth, Moyar is actually more convincing in the testimony that he deploys, IIRC.

While perhaps not meriting inclusion in the Canon being compiled, I nevertheless just think that if Sorley and Fall are mentioned, then A Better War and Hell in a Very Small Place ought to be mentioned as well.

Further, I agree that The Long Gray Line (Atkinson) and The Nightingale's Song are both great books.

Regards
OC