Some new evidence on the 1967 attack:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nat...ll=bal-home-he
Remember the USS Liberty
Some new evidence on the 1967 attack:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nat...ll=bal-home-he
See the USS Liberty Memorial for more.
This series of attacks is one of those things Americans just seem to not want to grasp.
Tom
Maybe, but it always struck me as something that most Americans have never heard of. The elite, political and media, doesn't usually want to talk about it, so most people never hear about it.Originally Posted by Tom Odom
I'd tend to go with this as well. The whole Liberty incident tends to get swept under the rug in most general history classes, and that's all many Americans ever get.
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Swept under the rug? Make that hidden and nailed shut; virtually nothing was out until Assault on the Liberty came out and the suppression machine swung into high gear. The Moorer Commission statement in 2003 was damning but given little coverage:
The "Moorer Commission" (Chaired by Adm. Moorer) investigated the attack and made the following findings:
"We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel's attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crew members, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following:
1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world's most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 173 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);
2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;
3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;
4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;
5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;
6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;
7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic efforts of the ship's Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crew members were later threatened with "court-martial, imprisonment or worse" if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;
8. That due to the influence of Israel's powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;
9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crew member has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack;
10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy's 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;
11. That the truth about Israel's attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace;
12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel's interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States.
Last edited by Tom Odom; 10-03-2007 at 05:00 PM.
Yeah...I find the whole thing disgusting in the extreme myself.
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Here we go again with the USS Liberty sailing in waters that just happened to be in the middle of a major shooting war during a time when the Israeli Air Force virtually destroyed the entire Egyptian Air Force still on the ground for the most part. An Israeli Air Force that was on the highest of alerts and looking for threats and every angle in a extremely fast shooting conflict. I happen to agree with with the fog of war explanation of the Israelis and they made good, as far as that can go, with settlements. Let's talk about Omar Bradley bombing our own ground forces not once but twice during Operation Cobra. I don't see a lot of people crying about that too much. The attack on the USS Liberty was only twenty-three years later. Today, it would be like looking back at friendly fire incidents during Grenada or Panama. The attack on the USS Liberty inflicted damage, disability, and even death. So, did our attack helicopters looking right at our men and equipment and still firing on them. What makes this news, as opposed to Operation Cobra, is the fact that the Israelis were involved. It was during the Cold War. We supplied the Isaelis and the Soviet Union supplied everyone else. The USS Liberty was at the wrong time and place on purpose. A calculated risk that was ignored or accepted. Given the underlying canon for the SWC I would go so far as to say it was entirely the fault of United States command and control.
"But suppose everybody on our side felt that way?"
"Then I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way. Wouldn't I?"
High altitude bombing during WW II was one thing,
a better comparison would be the friendly fire incidents by A-10s in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Proving that low altitude strafing can hit the wrong targets.
Of course, all three of those were incidents where one pilot made a three second mistake on a single pass. Same thing is true of Attack chopper firing, short term, burst or two. The Liberty incident was different.
The Liberty was hit by multiple passes by at least two aircraft and by three Torpedo Boats over a period of almost an hour. That after having been overflown on at least two occasions by Israeli aircraft the day before -- and whose pilots exchanged waves with Liberty's crew...
You believe that the Liberty was solely a victim of US Command and control errors and the Israelis are effectively innocent?
Fascinating.
No, I don't think the Israelis were innocent. And I don't think the Americans were innocent as well. No different than I think Omar Bradley was innocent of carpet bombing our troops not once but twice during the Battle of Normandy based on a tactical decision to fly across our own FEBA rather than fly horizontally on the Germans' FEBA using an Army Air Corps whose only objective use of bombers were strategic in nature. The bottom line is the USS Liberty shouldn't have been where it was. The fact that units of Israelis recognized the ship and other units didn't is no different than any other circumstances surrounding any other friendly fire incident. It is sensationalized because it involves Jews making a mistake. Any time Israel makes a mistake it conjures up all sorts of conspiracy theories and smear campaigns.
Such is that the USS Liberty was deliberately attacked with extreme prejudice, 911 was executed by our own government, and the Holocaust never occurred. The only elephant in the room whereas the USS Liberty is concerned is speculation. Something we try to avoid on the SWC [facetious and emphasis added].Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest...[such as] wages isn't income and only gold is money.
How many Americans were killed and maimed by friendly fire in Vietnam during the same days of the Six Day War?
What is fascinating is that there is enough information readily available to answer the number of casualties and damage of the USS Liberty. Researching friendly fire incidents in Vietnam during the same time period might be a little more difficult to obtain.
Last edited by Culpeper; 10-05-2007 at 05:05 AM.
"But suppose everybody on our side felt that way?"
"Then I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way. Wouldn't I?"
He does have a point.
As much as I may disagree with Culpeper on certain things, he has a point.
[/quote]
the USS Liberty is concerned is speculation. Something we try to avoid on the SWC [facetious and emphasis added].
[/quote]
Look, I know I am knew, but what attracted me to this site was the lack of speculation where there is no information to speculate on. He has a point. This is one of the few issues where this site has gotten like this.
Also, unless some of the people here have knowledge they aren't telling us we are going on nothing. We know it was a messed up incident that makes no damn sense, but thats about it. We can speculate that something definetly going on in both the Israeli and American governments to warrant such a large cover up. It is reasonable to speculate (it is speculation even though we are pretty sure) that there was a cover due to the amount of disinformation around the issue, but due to the amount of insanity we cannot reasonably judge wheter this was in fact a giant cover up or just a bunch of incompetent beurocrats scrambling during war time to cover thier asses and stirring up so much dust it looks like a sandstorm.
Although, I strongly beleive there was a cover up I keep my speculations out of it. All you need to do is live in a foreign country, Canada (yes, it is a foreign country, regretably), for a few years to see why this stuff can just be insane. You may not hear much about it down here but there are a hell of a lot of people (especially in parts of the forces) who have plenty of arguments claiming the US bombed the Canadian soldiers on purpose. I am very serious about this, you would not believe the stuff I have heard and been subjected to. I've heard this from Liberal Party (its a real party up ther) and NDP [National Democratic Party which has no equivilent party in the US] nutcases, but most of it has come from members of the Forces.
Every incident we've had with other country has people (a lot of them) throughing speculation around. Someone I used to know showed me the articles Japanes papers (legitimate ones) have published about American attacks on Japanese fishermen. Although, this definetely was an attack (quite possibly on purpose) we don't know why. We are speculating on Israeli motives (no matter how many there may be) and then sepculating on speculation on speculation. At the same time nobody is speculating on what WE were doing, and by that I mean every part of the government. Who knows what the CIA was doing. If there is one thing we can learn from History (which I believe is something all of us have studied) is that nothing is that simple.
Sorry if I am being a bit agressive with this, but after dealing with stuff like this in Canada I want to make sure I never end up doing what they were [no insult to most Canadians, but you have to admit that your society (which like the US consists of many], like the US and all of the western world, is getting more and more obsessed with what is politically and socially trendy.]
Sorry about the rant, but I really have an issue with this.
Adam
Sorry
I appologize if I got too emotional and critical here, but you really get a different perspective on this stuff when your the "bad guy" in a hostile society (No offense intended Canadians. Again, I am refering to a specific section of Canadian society which unfortunately is growing and getting nuttier. If it is any consolation I will admit that we have the same thing in the US. Britain has it too. Also, France, but who doesn't know that. Oh yeah, Germany. Well, pretty much everybody has the problem. Forgive me Canadians I like most of you, but I can't bring myself to forgive you for the plans to change the Mounties' dress uniform. LOL!)
Adam
P.S. Did I spell Mounty right. LOL!
This is pretty amazing to me. So you are willing to concede that the Israelis recognized Liberty as an American ship, and yet still believe that a sustained attack on it by air and naval vessels is the exact same as American strategic bombers dropping their loads short in WWII or an A-10 pilot conducting a single mistaken strafing run.The fact that units of Israelis recognized the ship and other units didn't is no different than any other circumstances surrounding any other friendly fire incident. It is sensationalized because it involves Jews making a mistake. Any time Israel makes a mistake it conjures up all sorts of conspiracy theories and smear campaigns.
I suppose by that definition, I could bump into my wife in the basement when I thought she was in the living room, shoot her full of holes, and then claim that my pistol fired accidentally. Yes, officer, I recognized her as my wife, then I raised the weapon and shot her multiple times - but you see, she wasn't where I expected her to be, so it's like my gun went off once on its own. Where's Slapout - I want to see if this defense will fly in court.
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