Remember the USS Liberty

[Adam L]

I appologize if I got too emotional and critical here, but you really get a different perspective on this stuff when your the "bad guy" in a hostile society (No offense intended Canadians. Again, I am refering to a specific section of Canadian society which unfortunately is growing and getting nuttier. If it is any consolation I will admit that we have the same thing in the US. Britain has it too. Also, France, but who doesn't know that. Oh yeah, Germany. Well, pretty much everybody has the problem. Forgive me Canadians I like most of you, but I can't bring myself to forgive you for the plans to change the Mounties' dress uniform. LOL!)

Adam

P.S. Did I spell Mounty right. LOL!

[tequila]

The fact that units of Israelis recognized the ship and other units didn't is no different than any other circumstances surrounding any other friendly fire incident. It is sensationalized because it involves Jews making a mistake. Any time Israel makes a mistake it conjures up all sorts of conspiracy theories and smear campaigns.

This is pretty amazing to me. So you are willing to concede that the Israelis recognized Liberty as an American ship, and yet still believe that a sustained attack on it by air and naval vessels is the exact same as American strategic bombers dropping their loads short in WWII or an A-10 pilot conducting a single mistaken strafing run.

I suppose by that definition, I could bump into my wife in the basement when I thought she was in the living room, shoot her full of holes, and then claim that my pistol fired accidentally. Yes, officer, I recognized her as my wife, then I raised the weapon and shot her multiple times - but you see, she wasn't where I expected her to be, so it's like my gun went off once on its own. Where's Slapout - I want to see if this defense will fly in court.

[slapout9]

Hi tequila, I would not recommend that as a defense but in todays world I would believe someone would try it. To me the worst and most damming evidence was when they did strafing runs on the sailors while they were in their LIFE RAFTS!! even if it was a mistake how could you justify that? I think that is what you call a war crime to boot.

[skiguy]

If anyone else did this to us, it is very likely we wouldn't have hesitated to declare it an act of war. (Good God, if an Arab nation did this, we'd be all over it) Why is it so different when it comes to Israel's war crimes?

Here's my conspiracy theory thought of the day: Why do we sweep this under the rug? Because the pro-Israel lobby has far too much influence over everyone in DC (Liberals, Conservatives, Republicans, and Democrats alike), and over our foreign policy. That's why. Are we still THAT guilt-ridden by the holocaust that we let Israel get away with murder?
And consider this: holocaust deniers are immediately labelled as insane. What about Armenian or Palestinian genocide deniers? They might as well just remove the "with the same judgement you use, it will be used against you" verse from the Bible.

/rant over.

[Steve Blair]

Hi tequila, I would not recommend that as a defense but in todays world I would believe someone would try it. To me the worst and most damming evidence was when they did strafing runs on the sailors while they were in their LIFE RAFTS!! even if it was a mistake how could you justify that? I think that is what you call a war crime to boot.

Concur...but they have the get out of jail free card. And trying to equate this with amicide incidents in Iraq, Afghanistan, or World War II is simply foolish. It MIGHT come closer to NKVD troops shooting their own comrades if they fell back from a failed assault, but even then it's a stretch.

Regarding life rafts...there were many incidents during World War II of this taking place...but I don't recall a single one where USN PT boats opened fire on British sailors in life rafts and continued firing once they were identified. That would be about the equivalent.

[Tom Odom]

This is pretty amazing to me. So you are willing to concede that the Israelis recognized Liberty as an American ship, and yet still believe that a sustained attack on it by air and naval vessels is the exact same as American strategic bombers dropping their loads short in WWII or an A-10 pilot conducting a single mistaken strafing run.

I suppose by that definition, I could bump into my wife in the basement when I thought she was in the living room, shoot her full of holes, and then claim that my pistol fired accidentally. Yes, officer, I recognized her as my wife, then I raised the weapon and shot her multiple times - but you see, she wasn't where I expected her to be, so it's like my gun went off once on its own. Where's Slapout - I want to see if this defense will fly in court.

Well close.

You have to do that three times, using different weapons each time.

That is where "speculation" goes astray when it comes to accidents and intentional acts.

Best

Tom

[Ken White]

No, I don't think the Israelis were innocent. And I don't think the Americans were innocent as well...

We can probably agree on that. We'd probably disagree on apportionment -- I have no problem with such a disagreement and, as they say, we should be able to do that agreeably.

...The bottom line is the USS Liberty shouldn't have been where it was...

However, not in agreement on that. International waters, the burden of positive identification was on the attacker. Period.

...The fact that units of Israelis recognized the ship and other units didn't is no different than any other circumstances surrounding any other friendly fire incident...

Perhaps, we don't know. We do know very few friendly fire incidents with excellent visibility and surface contact occur over a two day period.

...It is sensationalized because it involves Jews making a mistake. Any time Israel makes a mistake it conjures up all sorts of conspiracy theories and smear campaigns.

I've noticed that. I've also notice undue defensiveness on those topics. That does not mean I‘m disposed toward or agree with either course.

Such is that the USS Liberty was deliberately attacked with extreme prejudice,...

Neither you or I know whether that's the case or not. You seem to not and I know I do not buy that; I think it was simply a screwup -- but a particularly egregious and inexscusable one.

... The only elephant in the room whereas the USS Liberty is concerned is speculation. Something we try to avoid on the SWC [facetious and emphasis added].

Really? Hard to tell sometimes. Beyond speculation is the location of the ship and the time taken for the incident to occur; every source pretty much agrees on those two items.

How many Americans were killed and maimed by friendly fire in Vietnam during the same days of the Six Day War?

A bunch, probably about the same number; who knows.

What is fascinating is that there is enough information readily available to answer the number of casualties and damage of the USS Liberty. Researching friendly fire incidents in Vietnam during the same time period might be a little more difficult to obtain.

No question. Fortunately, we don't have to do that because it has absolutely no relevance. As you know, the stats are somewhere, it's just digging them out that is a pain.

Thus, I find it surprising that you cannot see the very significant difference simply due to the public nature of the Liberty incident. I've seen the biggest complaint voiced by most with whom I've discussed the whole thing revolve around the actions of Johnson and MacNamara. I know those two are my big gripe.

The US screwed up, the Isaraelis screwed up a bit more IMO and those two dangerous people at the top of the US power structure capped it all. I can understand comm glitches, I can understand overreaction in combat and I can forgive both those things. Dishonesty above the normal political BS in high places I don't accept.

It isn't the incident, it's the coverup.

[goesh]

I live with the belief that that someone at a high level in the US was feeding Intel to the Arabs with hopes of producing a stalement and prevent the Soviets and the US from being fully sucked in. Dean Rusk truly believed diplomacy could win the day and the hotline with the Soviets was first used during this crisis. The Epygtian military was penetrated by Mossad as were Syrian forces and when word came to Meir Amit that the Americans were sharing info, he felt there was no choice but to take out the source that was monitoring tactical communication of IDF forces. He had the resume' of experience and power to make this happen in such a time of crisis. My conspiracy theory explains the complicity in a mutual coverup at high levels and kept voters from asking embarassing questions of why Intel was being shared with enemies of allies. It also explains why such a talent as Amit would duck out of sight the following year.

[Adam L]

I live with the belief that that someone at a high level in the US was feeding Intel to the Arabs with hopes of producing a stalement and prevent the Soviets and the US from being fully sucked in. Dean Rusk truly believed diplomacy could win the day and the hotline with the Soviets was first used during this crisis. The Epygtian military was penetrated by Mossad as were Syrian forces and when word came to Meir Amit that the Americans were sharing info, he felt there was no choice but to take out the source that was monitoring tactical communication of IDF forces. He had the resume' of experience and power to make this happen in such a time of crisis. My conspiracy theory explains the complicity in a mutual coverup at high levels and kept voters from asking embarassing questions of why Intel was being shared with enemies of allies. It also explains why such a talent as Amit would duck out of sight the following year.

Now that is a well rounded and logical conspiracy theory. It has motive, which was lacking in much of the posted speculation, that would in such a war explain why such an extreme actioin would be taken. A lot of the politicians, the media and public too, were worried about the U.S. and USSR getting pulled into this.

Adam

[Jedburgh]

Amit didn't have the authority. It was Dayan - he was the Defense Minister - and he acted on his own initiative, executing without consultation. On record, Dayan was initially opposed to breaking the cease-fire to take the Golan. Once the Liberty was taken out, he suddenly changed his mind, and Operation Hammer was launched. This is in alignment with AB's statement earlier in this thread.

In any case, I find that this thread is moving along a path that seems pre-determined with topics of this nature. Amongst the speculation and conspiracy theories, there are shades of topics for a couple of different substantive threads - which I encourage the members to intitiate. I applaud the members for their restraint on a subject which on other boards has frequently intiated flame-wars.

However, at this point I am going to make the utterly unfair move of locking the thread in a pre-emptive strike before it does move further downhill....