Human Terrain & Anthropology (merged thread)

[marct]

Hi Jmm,

Good to be back . I thought that sweats were the uniform for teleworkers !

Cheers,

Marc

[Stan]

Hello Marc,
Glad to see you about - you old pirate

David and I had just Skyped each other (that almost sounds like something the USG will ban soon with hints of data bits having sex ) wondering about your whereabouts and I honestly thought you were on the dark continent with M-A traipsing around in the jungle.

Regards, Stan

[marct]

Hey Stan,

Good to hear from you, too .

Nah, haven't been doing that much travelling, just dealing with life and a LOT of singing (we had our Carnegie Hall debut last summer, to rave reviews ).

On the research / thinking front, I've been spending a lot of time thinking about how the CF can / should integrate their socio-cultural knowledge gathering and analysis, especially given our withdrawal from a combat role in Afghanistan. It's taken a while, but the picture is slowly coming together.

Cheers,

Marc

[ganulv]

LOLOL - yup, which is why I am increasingly coming to the opinion that "senor social scientists" should be lodged in Red teaming cells vs. something like the HTS.

HRAF is online now so there really is no excuse not to do some Phase 1 reading. Not that there was before.

On the research / thinking front, I've been spending a lot of time thinking about how the CF can / should integrate their socio-cultural knowledge gathering and analysis, especially given our withdrawal from a combat role in Afghanistan. It's taken a while, but the picture is slowly coming together.

If you happen to be walking along the roadside when a pair of the CF’s new model snowshoes fall off a truck I might know a potential buyer for them in western Massachusetts. Not that there has been much need for them down this way this winter…

[marct]

HRAF is online now so there really is no excuse not to do some Phase 1 reading. Not that there was before.

True.... then again, I know a lot of people who just don't have the mindset for using the HRAF files . Anyway, it looks like the HTS is into a market expansion phase not only trying to sell the system to other countries but, also, getting into the phase 0 action .

If you happen to be walking along the roadside when a pair of the CF’s new model snowshoes fall off a truck I might know a potential buyer for them in western Massachusetts. Not that there has been much need for them down this way this winter…

LOL - they are nice, aren't they! I'd probably keep them for myself given how much snow we have been getting up here. Not as much as some years, but a few heavy days.

Cheers,

Marc

[jmm99]

are the wave of the present and future - the ultimate general purpose uniform even for those doing ethnography and ethnology.

That field work involving socio-cultural knowledge gathering, esp. where a common language is lacking and commmunication can be effected only by acting out the physical practices of the culture, sounds like it could get pretty sweaty - maybe no clothes is the best norm there.

All in all, cross-cultural comparison using textual and non-textual artifacts of various kinds sounds like a less stressful pursuit for aged gummers.

Regards

Mike

[Stan]

... where a common language is lacking and communication can be effected only by acting out the physical practices of the culture, sounds like it could get pretty sweaty - maybe no clothes is the best norm there.

Regards

Mike

Hey Mike,
Most of the FAOs I worked with had far less language capabilities but yet their knowledge of the local culture and interaction in fact spoke tons. I would think having language abilities is paramount (or certainly makes things easier), but its only a slight part of the equation that some individuals simply don't possess.

Remind me to tell you the story about a CAR lieutenant who took nearly all his clothes off for a hair cut in South Carolina after being on base for 20 hours. His barber... was none other than the Provost Marshall's 18 year old daughter

[Stan]

On the research / thinking front, I've been spending a lot of time thinking about how the CF can / should integrate their socio-cultural knowledge gathering and analysis, especially given our withdrawal from a combat role in Afghanistan. It's taken a while, but the picture is slowly coming together.

Cheers,

Marc

Marc, One would think that almost anyone with background from their military experiences would be a great source of knowledge, but it seems to me that sociocultural analyses continues to take a back seat (as far back as post-1991). We can't even remotely figure out what the Chinese and Russians are doing, yet alone a far more complex subject like Afghanistan.

I'm certainly not going to argue with Malinowski, but I've known people that devoted their lifetime to going local, but yet, had no idea what they were talking about.

One of the things I immediately recognized was the pathetic use of interpreters. Locals like their own spin on things and that never translated into something our Embassy folks could comprehend. It's no wonder we're in the mess we're in

[ganulv]

I'm certainly not going to argue with Malinowski, but I've known people that devoted their lifetime to going local, but yet, had no idea what they were talking about.

One of the things I immediately recognized was the pathetic use of interpreters. Locals like their own spin on things and that never translated into something our Embassy folks could comprehend.

You know, Malinowski had the Slavic soul so he was working at an advantage. It’s true, though, just being there doesn’t mean you get it. And every field linguist I’ve known has a clue about local life in the places they have worked even if they hadn’t had the bit of formal training in socio-cultural theory per se. (On a tangent, I took a couple of courses from a linguist who is a Kinyarwanda speaker. He seems to think I’m pretty much a moron, not without reason. )

[Sweats] are the wave of the present and future - the ultimate general purpose uniform even for those doing ethnography and ethnology.

Personally, I think Supplex is gold for the hot and muggy stuff. But I won’t argue with my elders.

All in all, cross-cultural comparison using textual and non-textual artifacts of various kinds sounds like a less stressful pursuit for aged gummers.

Ça dépend. I’d take a day in Bali over a day with a crusty old archivist 99 times out of a 100. And that’s being generous!

True.... then again, I know a lot of people who just don't have the mindset for using the HRAF files.

It’s true, I sometimes forget that I’m a gentleman of the old school.

Anyway, it looks like the HTS is into a market expansion phase not only trying to sell the system to other countries but, also, getting into the phase 0 action .

That’s… surprising. My admittedly limited understanding of HTS is that it hasn’t borne much fruit. Or maybe it’s not surprising given the tendency of bureaucracy to spawn zombie programs (braindead but relentlessly expanding and hard to put in the ground).

LOL - they are nice, aren't they! I'd probably keep them for myself given how much snow we have been getting up here. Not as much as some years, but a few heavy days.

It’s a neat idea to use metal to construct a more traditional frame form and to use lacing rather than Hypalon for the flotation. But that’s a separate paper, as you put it earlier.

It’s so brown and bland down this way it might as well be the Midwest. I had to make a day trip all the way to central Vermont last weekend to get into any of the white stuff. I did get to pass some of the time by listening to the Canadiens/Caps game in the vernacular, at least!

[marct]

That’s… surprising. My admittedly limited understanding of HTS is that it hasn’t borne much fruit. Or maybe it’s not surprising given the tendency of bureaucracy to spawn zombie programs (braindead but relentlessly expanding and hard to put in the ground).

What's really frustrating for me is that we really just don't have much decent, publicly available data on it . Anecdotal evidence abounds and, from some of the stuff I've seen, the quality and usability range is huge. My suspicion, though, is that the "export version" is being pushed as a way to generate legitimacy (and revenue). The phase 0 move is probably to try and avoid coming cuts since I suspect that a lot of what they will be doing is already done. Guess we'll just have to see....

It’s so brown and bland down this way it might as well be the Midwest. I had to make a day trip all the way to central Vermont last weekend to get into any of the white stuff. I did get to pass some of the time by listening to the Canadiens/Caps game in the vernacular, at least!

We've been having rain for the past couple of days. After all, "Waterlude" (real name Winterlude) is a tradition up here. Looks like we'll get snow again on Friday, though.

Cheers,

Marc

[Stan]

Hey Matt,

You know, Malinowski had the Slavic soul so he was working at an advantage. It’s true, though, just being there doesn’t mean you get it. And every field linguist I’ve known has a clue about local life in the places they have worked even if they hadn’t had the bit of formal training in socio-cultural theory per se. (On a tangent, I took a couple of courses from a linguist who is a Kinyarwanda speaker. He seems to think I’m pretty much a moron, not without reason. )

I guess my original point would be that we can't just take an ordinary soldier and hope to have an anthropologist. As bleak as some conclude the HTS program is, there are just as many of us that fully applaud their contributions. That "edge" may in fact work out to saving lives on both sides of the fence.

As far as your DIE verbs go, ask that Kinyarwanda speaker to battle with Lingala with but 800 words and phrases. Tons of vocabulary doesn't always translate into difficult

As an aside, I'm glad you finally met Marc. We have battled with wit and brawn with no equal. It's now on you

[jmm99]

ethnography (interviewing people, establishing rapport, communicating "stuff") - in my (former) world, that may or may not have involved shaping (manipulation) of the "stuff" to meet the requirements of my client's end goals determined by the client's policy. "What is Truth ?" asked Pilate - and received no answer. Shaping (manipulation) may be used to support good, indifferent or bad policies. Anthropology also may be used to support good, indifferent or bad policies.

ethnology (cross-cultural comparison using textual and non-textual artifacts of various kinds) - been there, done that and do it here; and admit to the shaping (manipulation) of the resultant product. Again, the issue becomes whether the methodology is used in support of good, indifferent or bad policies. That opens up a new endeavor - as to which, one might pursue further adventures in ethnography and ethnology, or engage in adventures in babysitting.

Stan: The interpreter thing is interesting - and sometimes one gains a personal insight. Flashback: I'm with a gal and her parents (the dad having been a partisan in the Winter War after the Russians burnt the family farm; and then a regular in the Continuation War) to talk about legal options. The gal (very well educated) offered to translate - which was wise, considering my lack of any fluency in the spoken language (esp. real Finnish). I was surprised on how often "mutta" (but) occured - translating something like: on one hand ..., but on the other hand ... (yksilla kadella ..., mutta toisaalta ...). I sounded like some legal academic.

ganulv: While Supplex rings my bell as a chemist (and I've a little Dupont stock), I buy my wardrobe at the Family Dollar Store - no fancy Yuppie stuff. Besides, the only hot and muggy places up here are saunas - no clothes worn there.

I'd never argue anthropology with Marc; he's the one who keeps bringing up things like Hittite Law (as to which, he clearly needs guidance ). No point in fighting - our ancestors did enough of that in 1755-1760 (Lake George and the Plains of Abraham, wins for Marc's; Fort William Henry and Le Moulin a Vent, wins for mine). They then went on to join in building a nation, Canada - although admittedly, a few others did help in that process.

Regards

Mike

[ganulv]

Hey Matt,

I guess my original point would be that we can't just take an ordinary soldier and hope to have an anthropologist. As bleak as some conclude the HTS program is, there are just as many of us that fully applaud their contributions. That "edge" may in fact work out to saving lives on both sides of the fence.

I guess my reservation is that some seem to conceive of socio–cultural knowledge as a panacea. If the expectations are reasonable I could see how having an anthropologist around on the ground could help in this way: anthropologists are aware that there is always more than one way to do things as well as of the fact that variation in social life isn’t infinite. An anthropologist could conceivably 1) help steer troops on the ground away from understanding the locals’ motivations too much from their own (the troops’) point of view as well as 2) help save some time making assessments of communities because they can immediately eliminate a lot of options that someone cutting things from whole cloth might consider in their initial assessments.

I remain skeptical that anthropologists working with troops in an area where there’s an insurgency underway can elicit consistently reliable opinions and detailed pieces of information from the locals. One of the things an ethnographer usually needs to get at those is trust, and that takes time even when everyone isn’t paranoid (and with good reason!) about everyone else’s real intentions. I hope no one is under the impression that ethnographers can get what an interrogator can in those contexts, just without the consequences of running interrogations.

I’m beyond skeptical about efforts at directed culture change. I’m not saying it can’t be done successfully. I’m not convinced anyone knows how to do it predictably, though. And I just don’t believe the U.S. is ever going to see a long term culture change project through to the end, and that’s a recipe for things ending up more chaotic than before when the project is left off. Reconstruction is—or at least should be, IMHO—the type specimen for such as that.

As far as your DIE verbs go, ask that Kinyarwanda speaker to battle with Lingala with but 800 words and phrases. Tons of vocabulary doesn't always translate into difficult

Noun classes, always a party… With some vowel harmony and a little tonal morphophonology as party favors!

[Ken White]

It's taken a while, but the picture is slowly coming together

Good to see you here again -- and I sure hope you'll share that as it comes together...

Sing well.

Ken