Human Terrain & Anthropology (merged thread)

[Ken White]

I don't claim an expertise, but I AM from a very small, backwards, redneck place

Me too, I bet mine is smaller than yours...

and I have yet to encounter a "foreign" cultural concept.

Then you're really lucky, I've run into several; Boston, New york, Los angeles among others. As for overseas differences, I spent a couple of years in the ME living and traveling on the economy in peacetime and I've spent about seven in Asia proper mostly but not all in wartime.

They may not be different to you but there are differences -- not quite the same thing -- in my opinion and that of most people I've talked to. That includes the local residents overseas who are acutely aware of those differences if you really talk to them at length.

And I disagree that the Asian concept of family, face and honor are foreign to Western culture; they just aren't the McCulture variety that is marked in, to and by the US as a whole.

I didn't say they were foreign, I said: "You left out the Asian concepts of family, face and honor which all have a significant impact and are not at all like western concepts." To me that simply meant you didn't mention them and they have an effect in any relationship or dealings with Asians. We have the concepts as well but theirs are not like ours, the interpretations and strengths of application differ. Thus my angels / pin comment; what you said I said is not what I said.

I STILL get a cheesecake for my birthday, which I eat with feigned enjoyment, that is given to me by a now-elderly neighbor, because I once remarked that I like cheesecake. And I do so because of family, face and honor implications...

Good for you for doing it for all those reasons. Good of that person to track you down around the world and get it to you -- unless you're always lucky enough to be home for your birthday; if so, good for you.

My Family was slighted by another family two centuries ago -- I do not wait for one of them to appear in my sights to be killed. Others have been known to carry a grudge that long -- and to kill over it. Nor do I consider my wife and daughter inferior creatures (I wouldn't dare ). I've got three Cousins I can't stand; wouldn't ask them for help or help them for any reason, ever, cousins or no...

There are differences.

If you really don't believe there are differences and if you bought any local products while you were in the ME, I'll bet you made the seller's day...

[120mm]

Ken, I didn't mean to mean that cultures aren't different, I meant that they didn't seem "foreign" to me. Even big cities, while different, had a landscape and rhythm that was understandable. I've embedded my responses for fun and profit...

Me too, I bet mine is smaller than yours...

Smaller than 3 people per square mile?

Then you're really lucky, I've run into several; Boston, New york, Los angeles among others. As for overseas differences, I spent a couple of years in the ME living and traveling on the economy in peacetime and I've spent about seven in Asia proper mostly but not all in wartime.

They may not be different to you but there are differences -- not quite the same thing -- in my opinion and that of most people I've talked to. That includes the local residents overseas who are acutely aware of those differences if you really talk to them at length.I didn't say they were foreign, I said: "You left out the Asian concepts of family, face and honor which all have a significant impact and are not at all like western concepts." To me that simply meant you didn't mention them and they have an effect in any relationship or dealings with Asians. We have the concepts as well but theirs are not like ours, the interpretations and strengths of application differ. Thus my angels / pin comment; what you said I said is not what I said.

Even better is "what you said I said not being what you said" is not conceptually the same, so we're really talking past each other.

Good for you for doing it for all those reasons. Good of that person to track you down around the world and get it to you -- unless you're always lucky enough to be home for your birthday; if so, good for you.

1 month in transit, being crushed, and high heat didn't help it any; I *really* didn't eat it, I threw it out. But that can be our secret on this public internet forum....

My Family was slighted by another family two centuries ago -- I do not wait for one of them to appear in my sights to be killed. Others have been known to carry a grudge that long -- and to kill over it. Nor do I consider my wife and daughter inferior creatures (I wouldn't dare ). I've got three Cousins I can't stand; wouldn't ask them for help or help them for any reason, ever, cousins or no...

There are differences.

If you really don't believe there are differences and if you bought any local products while you were in the ME, I'll bet you made the seller's day...

Oh, c'mon, Ken, where's your Tiddlywink spirit? Surely you wouldn't let the family down....

Your grudge example is a good place to work from. It isn't tough to understand a "grudge", though the variable of "time" is unusual to some. To your typical 13 year old girl, "grudge" is a natural concept. Maintaining it intergenerationally for 200 years is long, but not unheard of. Now, is that a totally "foreign" concept? Not really, at least to my way of thinking. It's well within the range of human experience. So is the concept of not claiming fault, or needing to save face. They're familiar concepts, provided you don't "foreignize" them by getting wrapped around the axle about a different variable or two.

I think this concept has an analogy in male-female relations. The great majority of males I know cannot seem to communicate with females, and find them mysterious at best, and totally erratic and illogical at worst.

Personally, I've never found it particularly difficult to communicate with females; I find their behavior predictable and (mostly) transparent and frankly, I am confused at what all the other males are complaining about.

[Ken White]

Ken, I didn't mean to mean that cultures aren't different, I meant that they didn't seem "foreign" to me.

That's great. I can say pretty much the same thing, never had any "I don't fit in " angst even when I knew I didn't -- however, what applies to us may not apply to the whole Yankee Army, thus the HTTs may have some merit...

Smaller than 3 people per square mile?

Depends on when -- when I was a kid, yep. Not today.

Even better is "what you said I said not being what you said" is not conceptually the same, so we're really talking past each other.

I don't think I said what you think I said but then again you didn't say what I thought you said or something like that-- so you're probably right...

Your grudge example is a good place to work from. It isn't tough to understand a "grudge", though the variable of "time" is unusual to some. To your typical 13 year old girl, "grudge" is a natural concept. Maintaining it intergenerationally for 200 years is long, but not unheard of. Now, is that a totally "foreign" concept? Not really, at least to my way of thinking. It's well within the range of human experience. So is the concept of not claiming fault, or needing to save face. They're familiar concepts, provided you don't "foreignize" them by getting wrapped around the axle about a different variable or two.

Now you're tap dancing -- not too well, either...

There is a difference; not a 'foreign concept' but a difference in application -- which is all I said in the first place.

I think this concept has an analogy in male-female relations. The great majority of males I know cannot seem to communicate with females, and find them mysterious at best, and totally erratic and illogical at worst.

Personally, I've never found it particularly difficult to communicate with females; I find their behavior predictable and (mostly) transparent and frankly, I am confused at what all the other males are complaining about.

Hmm. Okay. I'm reminded of my earlier comment about the seller of stuff in the ME...

The other males are NOT saying females are mysterious, erratic or illogical. Not at all. Most guys can figure out what females are up to as easily as you can. What they are saying is that females think and react differently than do males. Just as Asians think and react differently than do westerners.

Which is all I said in the first place...

[120mm]

I think the fundamental problem is that I'm not communicating well what I mean. I see "different" and "foreign" as two discrete categories. To me, a "different" cultural aspect is comprehensible and understandable, while "foreign" often completely blows the mind of the receiver, or is not even picked up in the first place.

Thus my analogy about male/female relationships. Whether they acknowledge it or not, the majority of males, just don't "get" females, or the females I'm talking to are fibbing about it, at least to me.... For example, I just attended a meeting where the only female there exhibited a wide range of both receptive/exhibiting behaviors toward one meeting attendee, while simultaneously exhibiting "you creep me the heck out" behaviors toward one other attendee, and exhibiting "I'm interested in what you're saying" to another attendee. I doubt if any of the males present were particularly attuned to these message, and maybe dimly so.... I occasionally quiz males in situations like this to gauge their level of awareness, and unless they are lying (which is possible) they most often can (barely) receive the receptivity cues, and that's about it.

Our interplay in this thread is exactly what I'm talking about. We have completely dissimilar ideas of what the concept of "different" and "foreign" are, which is deliciously ironic.

And, while I HAVE done ballet, modern and jazz, I have NEVER tap-danced.

[Ken White]

I think the fundamental problem is that I'm not communicating well what I mean. I see "different" and "foreign" as two discrete categories. To me, a "different" cultural aspect is comprehensible and understandable, while "foreign" often completely blows the mind of the receiver, or is not even picked up in the first place.

I don't disagree with that; can I point out that you are the one who first used and has continued to use the word 'foreign' whereas other than quoting you I have not used it? To me, it's not germane to the discussion which IMO effectively boiled down to the fact that 'foreign' is not important to soldiers; 'different' is important to them -- and there is a difference in thought processes between east and west.

Our interplay in this thread is exactly what I'm talking about. We have completely dissimilar ideas of what the concept of "different" and "foreign" are, which is deliciously ironic.

Don't see any irony -- but perhaps that's because I don't agree with you that our idea of what is 'foreign' and what is 'different' are dissimilar. I think they're pretty well in sync. The ironic thing is you keep using 'foreign' -- in a sense and with a use with which I have consistently agreed -- and seem to me to be saying that since Asians and their reasoning or approach to things are not foreign to you, they are therefor not different -- yet all the while acknowledging there are differences, if generally indirectly...

IOW, I'm inclined to believe this degenerated from a discussion of terms and whether a difference in thought processes existed and if so was it important to the soldier to an argument about foreignness and females, fine esoteric concepts both but which IMO aren't germane. So yeah, I guess there's some irony in there somewhere...

And, while I HAVE done ballet, modern and jazz, I have NEVER tap-danced.

That's good, given the example today on 13 year old female creatures and grudges, it is not thy forté.

[120mm]

IThe ironic thing is you keep using 'foreign' -- in a sense and with a use with which I have consistently agreed -- and seem to me to be saying that since Asians and their reasoning or approach to things are not foreign to you, they are therefor not different -- yet all the while acknowledging there are differences, if generally indirectly...

I'm not saying they aren't different; I'm saying the differences aren't fundamental. Rather they are variations on a theme. I see human beings as being more alike than they are different. Kind of a "glass half full" thing.

On the other hand, there appears to be no end of people who comment about how fundamentally different people are, depending on their culture/national identity. I'm saying it's more accurate to say they are cosmetically different.

[Ken White]

I'm not saying they aren't different; I'm saying the differences aren't fundamental . . . I'm saying it's more accurate to say they are cosmetically different.

No argument on that; People as they say are people. My point all along has simply those differences do exist and they need to be considered in military decision making because subtle and cosmetic though they may be, they can still be problematic -- reporting of numbers is a great and simple example...

Re: your earlier clarifying post Post on HTTs:

The primary problem with The Army is that they suck at self-examination. Too many people at too high of levels focused on their own rice bowl. HTS isn't perfect, but at least they are outsiders, capable of seeing the problems.

Forgot to mention earlier that I agree with that as well.

Who sez we were talking past each other...