Human Terrain & Anthropology (merged thread)

[Rex Brynen]

Drawing on information from Canadian civilians and troops operating in Kandahar, local cultural advisors and NATO allies, the team is trying to map out the power brokers of the province and how they relate to each other.

For me, the really scary thing is that it implies that we (and I mean here specifically the Canadians) haven't been doing this yet, although its clearly part of INTEL 101 for COIN operations (or, for that matter, aid and reconstruction operations).

On the other hand, I'm not that surprised....

[Hacksaw]

Wilf... I think its a little off target to cast aspersions at a program based on a reporter characterization of the topic as "deciphering the sometimes impeneterable..." I don't think either HTT members or program managers would make that claim...

Neither do I think the provision of additional resources to support the critical function of understanding the operational environment as an admission that forces aren't doing the task... it only signals the significance that leadership places on the task and the subsequent allocation of resources...

The only "worry" I have with regard to this program would actualize if commanders and staff delegated the task of understanding/describing their environment to "pros from Dover", I don't see this as likely, but certainly possible if you get a critical mass of the unimaginative/criminally inept.

Not sure why this creates some much consternation on this panel... the hystrionics of the anthropology community aside... what is the issue with bringing SME to bear on a military problem??

Live well and row

[Ken White]

The teams fulfill a valid need and are quite likely to be effective. It's easy for Wilf and 120mm who have spent some time among Arabs and Asians to say :

:There is this myth that somehow, "Eastern minds" are mysterious and not understandable by westerners. I guess that might work for the dense and imperceptive among us, but I've NEVER seen or heard of an "Eastern mind" making a decision that wasn't either obvious, or decipherable by noodling it for a little bit.

In addition to the dense, there those who are not one bit dense but who just arrived in the area and have to make rapid combat decisions and do not have the time to sort through nuance -- they don't have time to noodle...

Amazingly, even the "inscrutable oriental" makes decisions based upon self-interest, either short-, long-term, or of the enlightened variety. All it takes is to discover what that self-interest IS.

I partly agree -- I'll also point out that none of us knew that before we spent some time among them and I'll further bet big money that none of the three of us is nearly as adept at discovering what that self-interest is to the extent we would like or would like to think we are...

You left out the Asian concepts of family, face and honor which all have a significant impact and are not at all like western concepts. Politeness and the resultant tendency to tell you what they think you want to hear -- and that is not a lie to them -- also impact.

Regardless, the teams will provide insights and, importantly, will institutionalize the knowledge (well, hopefully, anyway...) so that even folks going into the area for the first time are as smart as the three of us are...

Far, far more importantly, that knowledge may cut through the terrible ego and arrogance of the westerner who thinks he's got the east figured out.

[William F. Owen]

Wilf... I think its a little off target to cast aspersions at a program based on a reporter characterization of the topic as "deciphering the sometimes impeneterable..." I don't think either HTT members or program managers would make that claim...

Certainly not my intent to cast aspersions. I am genuinely trying to get to the bottom of all this "culture" and HTT thing.

I see it nowhere else in any COIN publications or any historical reference to it. It's a new invention, and nothing I've read gives it adequate colour or depth.

I want to understand it, and then I might cast an aspersion or two!

[Bob's World]

Anything that allows DoD to evolve from a blinders on focus on the threat as being described to them by the intel officer is a good thing. My recent experience is largely with our efforts in the Philippines, and while we didn't have special teams, we didn't need them because for SOF, assessing the environment and the populace prior to designing COIN engagement is as fundamental as breathing. Like security, it is the thing that you do first and the thing you keep doing throughout your engagement. The conventional force is going thru the school of hard knocks on this, but is continuing to evolve.

At a higher level, progress continues to be made incorporating this more holistic approach into our planning process as well. Be it "Commander's Appreciation and Campaign Design," or "Systemic Operational Design." Both processess essentially insert into the Mission Analysis process a methodology that breaks down the problem and analyzes the systems and dynamics at work; vice simply asking "where are the bad guys." We continue to evolve.

[120mm]

The teams fulfill a valid need and are quite likely to be effective. It's easy for Wilf and 120mm who have spent some time among Arabs and Asians to say : In addition to the dense, there those who are not one bit dense but who just arrived in the area and have to make rapid combat decisions and do not have the time to sort through nuance -- they don't have time to noodle...I partly agree -- I'll also point out that none of us knew that before we spent some time among them and I'll further bet big money that none of the three of us is nearly as adept at discovering what that self-interest is to the extent we would like or would like to think we are...

You left out the Asian concepts of family, face and honor which all have a significant impact and are not at all like western concepts. Politeness and the resultant tendency to tell you what they think you want to hear -- and that is not a lie to them -- also impact.

Regardless, the teams will provide insights and, importantly, will institutionalize the knowledge (well, hopefully, anyway...) so that even folks going into the area for the first time are as smart as the three of us are...

Far, far more importantly, that knowledge may cut through the terrible ego and arrogance of the westerner who thinks he's got the east figured out.

I don't claim an expertise, but I AM from a very small, backwards, redneck place... (with due apologies to at least one other board member who I know is from there) and I have yet to encounter a "foreign" cultural concept. And I disagree that the Asian concept of family, face and honor are foreign to Western culture; they just aren't the McCulture variety that is marketed in, to and by the US as a whole.

I STILL get a cheesecake for my birthday, which I eat with feigned enjoyment, that is given to me by a now-elderly neighbor, because I once remarked that I like cheesecake. And I do so because of family, face and honor implications....

BTW - I get to do so for the 32nd time a month from today.

[reed11b]

BTW - I get to do so for the 32nd time a month from today.

Rock! I am not the youngest member of this community! Thank you for being a "young pup"
Reed

[120mm]

Laughing is good.

Concur.

So what is it that the Human Terrain Teams are telling us, that we don't know or can't get ourselves? I really am keen to know this.

HTTs need to tell this to the military commander, because they are too foreign to the military CoC to engage in "can-do, hoo-ah, suck up" behaviors that everyone who wears green tends to do. But that's just my opinion.

The primary problem with The Army is that they suck at self-examination. Too many people at too high of levels focused on their own rice bowl. HTS isn't perfect, but at least they are outsiders, capable of seeing the problems.

[120mm]

Rock! I am not the youngest member of this community! Thank you for being a "young pup"
Reed

Wrong - The neighbor lady found out I liked cheesecake on my 13th Birthday. Been choking it down since then, or for 32 additional years. You can do that math to find out how old I will be.

[Rex Brynen]

And now the controversial concept has been adopted by Canada, which recently launched a version of its own called "white situational awareness" teams.

Am I the only one who find the name both amusing and peculiarly appropriate (as in, "some white folks in Afghanistan could so with some situational awareness...")?

To get to the broader debate that Wilf raises:

1) I agree that other cultures are rarely impenetrable, and indeed that there are certain dynamics of power and politics than run through a great many societies. By the same token, there are concepts that are different, cultural values that aren't appreciated, tolerances and intolerances that need explaining. Moreover, I absolutely agree with Ken than those of us who spend a lot of time in other parts of the world sometimes don't even realize the things that we know about societal behaviour, cross-cultural communication, etc.... and that newbies may well be in need of a crash course (lest they otherwise, well, crash).

2) On top of this, the news report (Hacksaw is right: it shouldn't really be taken as a necessarily clear and accurate description of the teams) suggests that a lot of what will be done is social mapping—where power and resources lie, and how local political dynamics work. This does require some specialist attention, either brought in from the outside, learned on the spot, or some combination of the two.

Deciphering where real power lies, how decisions emerge, the balance of cultural/ideological/material/pragmatic factors in decision-making, the influence of identity, clan, and family factors, the amorphous boundaries of social groups, and the relationships between them, (etc, etc.) is all hard work. (It also as much art as science, but that's another issue...)

[Bob's World]

Spending 7 months in the Egyptian Army (Desert Shield and Storm) was an eye opener for for me as a young ODA Commander. Yes, people at their core are the same everywhere, and concepts like Maslows heirarchy apply to every populace; but if you think that a phrase or action that means one thing in your home town will mean the same thing three states over, let alone within a completely different culture, you are sadly mistaken. Yes, we need to draw upon our commonalities, but we also need to understand our differences if we want our engagement to be effective (i.e., produce our intended effect).

People from the Middle East see things very differently than People in America do. That is a fact. But don't stop slicing there. People within the Middle East are all very different as well. As any Iranian would quickly tell you "We are not Arab!!" When one travels to Asia, the people there similarly have a very keen sense of heirachy between nations and cultures that are very important to them. Most Americans can't tell a Japanese from a Korean by sight, but trust me, the people of the region can again slice it much finer than that and attribute tremendous significance to differences that we don't even register.

You see this in the Philippines a lot. The people there speak english, they have adopted a great deal of US culture, but at their core, they are Philippino; and how they think and percieve things is based upon thousands of years of Philippino cultural development, and that is very different than the cultural development of the average American. If an American drops a dish, he says "Sorry, I dropped the dish." If a Philippino drops a dish, he says "The dish fell." This is just one example, but if a people by their culture do not accept responsibility for actions, how does that translate to a government of that same people and their approach to Insurgency?

These are complex issues, and should not be down played. This is why the persistent engagement of our forward deployed Special Forces personnel is so important. Over years of going back over and over to the same areas they devleop an understanding that cannot be conveyed in the little booklets that our conventional forces always produce and hand out to everyone as they get on the plane. Keep printing the little books, but never forget that the knowledge it contains is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Rex Brynen]

People from the Middle East see things very differently than People in America do. That is a fact. But don't stop slicing there. People within the Middle East are all very different as well. As any Iranian would quickly tell you "We are not Arab!!"

Important point, and I would go even further: it can vary by locale, age, gender, level of education, etc. etc. The political role of Palestinian clans (for example) is very different in Gaza than it is Ramallah; Sunni urban politics is different in poor Tripoli than in middle class Beirut.

I'm also tempted to add Arlington County and Foggy Bottom, or Ottawa and Gatineau.

[Ken White]

I don't claim an expertise, but I AM from a very small, backwards, redneck place

Me too, I bet mine is smaller than yours...

and I have yet to encounter a "foreign" cultural concept.

Then you're really lucky, I've run into several; Boston, New york, Los angeles among others. As for overseas differences, I spent a couple of years in the ME living and traveling on the economy in peacetime and I've spent about seven in Asia proper mostly but not all in wartime.

They may not be different to you but there are differences -- not quite the same thing -- in my opinion and that of most people I've talked to. That includes the local residents overseas who are acutely aware of those differences if you really talk to them at length.

And I disagree that the Asian concept of family, face and honor are foreign to Western culture; they just aren't the McCulture variety that is marked in, to and by the US as a whole.

I didn't say they were foreign, I said: "You left out the Asian concepts of family, face and honor which all have a significant impact and are not at all like western concepts." To me that simply meant you didn't mention them and they have an effect in any relationship or dealings with Asians. We have the concepts as well but theirs are not like ours, the interpretations and strengths of application differ. Thus my angels / pin comment; what you said I said is not what I said.

I STILL get a cheesecake for my birthday, which I eat with feigned enjoyment, that is given to me by a now-elderly neighbor, because I once remarked that I like cheesecake. And I do so because of family, face and honor implications...

Good for you for doing it for all those reasons. Good of that person to track you down around the world and get it to you -- unless you're always lucky enough to be home for your birthday; if so, good for you.

My Family was slighted by another family two centuries ago -- I do not wait for one of them to appear in my sights to be killed. Others have been known to carry a grudge that long -- and to kill over it. Nor do I consider my wife and daughter inferior creatures (I wouldn't dare ). I've got three Cousins I can't stand; wouldn't ask them for help or help them for any reason, ever, cousins or no...

There are differences.

If you really don't believe there are differences and if you bought any local products while you were in the ME, I'll bet you made the seller's day...

[120mm]

Re: both the above. Once you are aware there ARE micro-cultures and internal differences in social logic, it makes it a heck of a lot easier to actually dig in and figure out the 5 Ws of cultural issues.

Of course, sensitivity and perceptivity vary between individuals, and a very perceptive individual will see the feedback and seek to adapt to the cultural difference. Others will just snowplow their way through, ignorant of even the existence of difference, or dismiss them as being "strange".

[120mm]

Ken, I didn't mean to mean that cultures aren't different, I meant that they didn't seem "foreign" to me. Even big cities, while different, had a landscape and rhythm that was understandable. I've embedded my responses for fun and profit...

Me too, I bet mine is smaller than yours...

Smaller than 3 people per square mile?

Then you're really lucky, I've run into several; Boston, New york, Los angeles among others. As for overseas differences, I spent a couple of years in the ME living and traveling on the economy in peacetime and I've spent about seven in Asia proper mostly but not all in wartime.

They may not be different to you but there are differences -- not quite the same thing -- in my opinion and that of most people I've talked to. That includes the local residents overseas who are acutely aware of those differences if you really talk to them at length.I didn't say they were foreign, I said: "You left out the Asian concepts of family, face and honor which all have a significant impact and are not at all like western concepts." To me that simply meant you didn't mention them and they have an effect in any relationship or dealings with Asians. We have the concepts as well but theirs are not like ours, the interpretations and strengths of application differ. Thus my angels / pin comment; what you said I said is not what I said.

Even better is "what you said I said not being what you said" is not conceptually the same, so we're really talking past each other.

Good for you for doing it for all those reasons. Good of that person to track you down around the world and get it to you -- unless you're always lucky enough to be home for your birthday; if so, good for you.

1 month in transit, being crushed, and high heat didn't help it any; I *really* didn't eat it, I threw it out. But that can be our secret on this public internet forum....

My Family was slighted by another family two centuries ago -- I do not wait for one of them to appear in my sights to be killed. Others have been known to carry a grudge that long -- and to kill over it. Nor do I consider my wife and daughter inferior creatures (I wouldn't dare ). I've got three Cousins I can't stand; wouldn't ask them for help or help them for any reason, ever, cousins or no...

There are differences.

If you really don't believe there are differences and if you bought any local products while you were in the ME, I'll bet you made the seller's day...

Oh, c'mon, Ken, where's your Tiddlywink spirit? Surely you wouldn't let the family down....

Your grudge example is a good place to work from. It isn't tough to understand a "grudge", though the variable of "time" is unusual to some. To your typical 13 year old girl, "grudge" is a natural concept. Maintaining it intergenerationally for 200 years is long, but not unheard of. Now, is that a totally "foreign" concept? Not really, at least to my way of thinking. It's well within the range of human experience. So is the concept of not claiming fault, or needing to save face. They're familiar concepts, provided you don't "foreignize" them by getting wrapped around the axle about a different variable or two.

I think this concept has an analogy in male-female relations. The great majority of males I know cannot seem to communicate with females, and find them mysterious at best, and totally erratic and illogical at worst.

Personally, I've never found it particularly difficult to communicate with females; I find their behavior predictable and (mostly) transparent and frankly, I am confused at what all the other males are complaining about.

[Ken White]

there are also those that have it all figured out. My observation over the years has been that about one or two out of 100 may actually be there -- and you may well be that batch hereabouts -- while the other 98+ range down the scale from almost as knowldgable as they believe to totally dangerous. Ain't no doubt in my mind I'm somewhere in the middle of that incomplete knowledge pack.

Asians aren't strange and I've never said or implied that -- they are different and that's not only okay but desirable IMO. They do many things better than westerners do -- basic politeness for one; and a lot of things as well but with a slightly different approach. You'll rarely see a price tag in the ME, for example. You do not want to admire any item at your host's house too lavishly or you'll end up taking it home...

You do realize you could confuse someone, particularly somebody as old and senile as I am. This:

"and I have yet to encounter a "foreign" cultural concept."

and this:

Once you are aware there ARE micro-cultures and internal differences in social logic...

would almost seem to be contradictions and this:

"I think a very important question we need to ask ourselves, is "What impact is our insistence on forcing a foreign concept of "law" on a society where we are trying to fight a counterinsurgency have on our strategic goals?" *

seems to imply that you accept there are differences and they deserve serious consideration...

* From the "Honor, murder and law" thread.

[reed11b]

My argument is not the use of HTT's but the naming and placement of them in the structure. I just get an expanded CA vibe from the whole project, and perhaps imbedding a CA element w/i a HQ section would be more effective, combined with an on-going focus of teaching leaders HOW to think instead of WHAT to think. Then again, I am more or less on the outside looking in at this point.
Reed

[Ken White]

Ken, I didn't mean to mean that cultures aren't different, I meant that they didn't seem "foreign" to me.

That's great. I can say pretty much the same thing, never had any "I don't fit in " angst even when I knew I didn't -- however, what applies to us may not apply to the whole Yankee Army, thus the HTTs may have some merit...

Smaller than 3 people per square mile?

Depends on when -- when I was a kid, yep. Not today.

Even better is "what you said I said not being what you said" is not conceptually the same, so we're really talking past each other.

I don't think I said what you think I said but then again you didn't say what I thought you said or something like that-- so you're probably right...

Your grudge example is a good place to work from. It isn't tough to understand a "grudge", though the variable of "time" is unusual to some. To your typical 13 year old girl, "grudge" is a natural concept. Maintaining it intergenerationally for 200 years is long, but not unheard of. Now, is that a totally "foreign" concept? Not really, at least to my way of thinking. It's well within the range of human experience. So is the concept of not claiming fault, or needing to save face. They're familiar concepts, provided you don't "foreignize" them by getting wrapped around the axle about a different variable or two.

Now you're tap dancing -- not too well, either...

There is a difference; not a 'foreign concept' but a difference in application -- which is all I said in the first place.

I think this concept has an analogy in male-female relations. The great majority of males I know cannot seem to communicate with females, and find them mysterious at best, and totally erratic and illogical at worst.

Personally, I've never found it particularly difficult to communicate with females; I find their behavior predictable and (mostly) transparent and frankly, I am confused at what all the other males are complaining about.

Hmm. Okay. I'm reminded of my earlier comment about the seller of stuff in the ME...

The other males are NOT saying females are mysterious, erratic or illogical. Not at all. Most guys can figure out what females are up to as easily as you can. What they are saying is that females think and react differently than do males. Just as Asians think and react differently than do westerners.

Which is all I said in the first place...

[120mm]

I think the fundamental problem is that I'm not communicating well what I mean. I see "different" and "foreign" as two discrete categories. To me, a "different" cultural aspect is comprehensible and understandable, while "foreign" often completely blows the mind of the receiver, or is not even picked up in the first place.

Thus my analogy about male/female relationships. Whether they acknowledge it or not, the majority of males, just don't "get" females, or the females I'm talking to are fibbing about it, at least to me.... For example, I just attended a meeting where the only female there exhibited a wide range of both receptive/exhibiting behaviors toward one meeting attendee, while simultaneously exhibiting "you creep me the heck out" behaviors toward one other attendee, and exhibiting "I'm interested in what you're saying" to another attendee. I doubt if any of the males present were particularly attuned to these message, and maybe dimly so.... I occasionally quiz males in situations like this to gauge their level of awareness, and unless they are lying (which is possible) they most often can (barely) receive the receptivity cues, and that's about it.

Our interplay in this thread is exactly what I'm talking about. We have completely dissimilar ideas of what the concept of "different" and "foreign" are, which is deliciously ironic.

And, while I HAVE done ballet, modern and jazz, I have NEVER tap-danced.

[Ken White]

I think the fundamental problem is that I'm not communicating well what I mean. I see "different" and "foreign" as two discrete categories. To me, a "different" cultural aspect is comprehensible and understandable, while "foreign" often completely blows the mind of the receiver, or is not even picked up in the first place.

I don't disagree with that; can I point out that you are the one who first used and has continued to use the word 'foreign' whereas other than quoting you I have not used it? To me, it's not germane to the discussion which IMO effectively boiled down to the fact that 'foreign' is not important to soldiers; 'different' is important to them -- and there is a difference in thought processes between east and west.

Our interplay in this thread is exactly what I'm talking about. We have completely dissimilar ideas of what the concept of "different" and "foreign" are, which is deliciously ironic.

Don't see any irony -- but perhaps that's because I don't agree with you that our idea of what is 'foreign' and what is 'different' are dissimilar. I think they're pretty well in sync. The ironic thing is you keep using 'foreign' -- in a sense and with a use with which I have consistently agreed -- and seem to me to be saying that since Asians and their reasoning or approach to things are not foreign to you, they are therefor not different -- yet all the while acknowledging there are differences, if generally indirectly...

IOW, I'm inclined to believe this degenerated from a discussion of terms and whether a difference in thought processes existed and if so was it important to the soldier to an argument about foreignness and females, fine esoteric concepts both but which IMO aren't germane. So yeah, I guess there's some irony in there somewhere...

And, while I HAVE done ballet, modern and jazz, I have NEVER tap-danced.

That's good, given the example today on 13 year old female creatures and grudges, it is not thy forté.