Hizbullah / Hezbollah (just the group)

[MattC86]

A few points.

How can you defeat Hizbullah? You can't militarily in my view. You can temporarily weaken but you cannot destroy. A senior IDF general told me recently that the IDF should have staged a full-scale invasion from the get go, punching up to the Litani in a couple of days before fanning back and wiping out Hizbullah pockets. However, first, the IDF would have taken much larger casualties, second, what about Hizbullah positions north of the Litani and in the Bekaa? The speculation is that come round 2, the IDF will move into the Bekaa and take out Hizbullah's logistical centers there. But then what? As has already been stated, Hizbullah will simply rebuild once the IDF has gone home.

BTW, Being Arabic, the word Hizbullah can be spelt in numerous different ways. There is no correct or incorrect spelling in English.

Oh, I'm quite aware of the pitfalls of writing out Arabic words in English - our professor always railed against us when we did that. So, in short, I can't do it. I just laugh when I see about 50 different versions of Hezbollah.

I completely agree about the IDF's inability to defeat Hezbollah in Lebanese territory, but I think Rex made an excellent point (though you, given your background and occupation, would speak to it better than I); namely, that the kidnapping and initial Israeli response detracted from Hezbollah's popularity and legitimacy in Lebanon. A more carefully planned initial response might have been effective without further bolstering Hezbollah in the eyes of the Lebanese people.

But you're right, there is no real way for Hezbollah to be defeated and destroyed by the IDF.

Matt

[William F. Owen]

To suggest that Hezbollah somehow out fought the IDF is akin to suggesting the Taliban out fought the US during OP Anaconda or that the Somalis out fought the US during Gothic Serpent.

I am going to abstain from further comment. I consider Hezbollah one of the worst terrorist groups on the planet, and one that directly threatens my family on a daily basis, thus I have to take a side and cannot afford the leisure of purely intellectual comment.

[MattC86]

Sir, I hardly consider Hezbollah a "good" group. There's no question they are terrorists. I have no particularly sympathy for their cause, goals, or methods.

Nor would I claim they "outfought" the IDF, which is a remarkably subjective term anyway. No one has admitted they get "outfought" since Stilwell marched out of Burma and announced we got our teeth kicked in - it's an issue of ego and pride, not usually of fact. Doesn't matter to me.

What I would say, based on the reports and analysis I've read - much of it provided by Jedburgh and others here, that Hezbollah fought very effectively for an irregular force taking on a professional army; that it held villages with decentralized defenses, and had more success against Israeli armor than many believed possible (thanks in part to the effectiveness of the RPG-29).

The criticism of the Israelis was (1) in their planning and operational concepts and (2) from Naveh, anyway, that they had been doing Gaza policing for so long, that when they took a few casualties and lost a few vehicles to Hezbollah, they were unprepared and prone to overcautiousness.

My larger question is less about what the IDF should have done (in part because almost everyone at least agrees it was something other than what they did) and more about what can be done against an entity like Hezbollah. They cannot be militarily destroyed, and the Lebanese government is in no position to co-opt them into the government.

Matt

[Penta]

I'm going to disagree, Matt.

I think Hezbollah can be destroyed militarily. However, it makes a difference who makes the attempt.

Unless the Lebanese Armed Forces are the ones to make the attempt, then it doesn't matter.

Reality is, so far as I can tell...Hezbollah is not even remotely subject to the authority of the de jure government of Lebanon.

Until Hezbollah is brought under Beirut's control, and the whole of Lebanese territory is actively under the sovereignty of the government in Beirut, then the situation won't change much.

Now, can the AFL do that? I don't know. At the moment, not by my estimation. Ever? I have no idea.

But until that occurs - it can't be a co-option, IMHO; it really has to be "Beirut asserts authority, takes all measures to back up that assertion when Hezbollah tells them to go away, and wins" - nothing is going to change.