Quote Originally Posted by Global Scout View Post
One could argue that irregular forces defeated Spain because the Madrid bombings resulted in a change of government and Spain withdrawing from Iraq. The same is happening Poland now, due to irregular attacks against Polish forces and their Ambassador in Iraq, and soon they will depart.
You can give the irregular force a battlefield victory here if they achieved a strategic aim BUT this is not a true defeat, LOOSING AN ELECTION is not the same as forced regime change, loss of statehood and subjugation. Loosing an election is democracy in action. It is what is done in Nation States. Stable nations hold elections and change politics all the time. The simplest example would be the US loosing a war and having the Constitution and the Government of the US thrown out, replaced with a system and personel of the Victors choosing or of a complete collpase of government.

Now I have never said an irregular force cannot issue a true defeat to a western power just that they would be hard pressed to do it alone. Hence the tie to Hezbollah, they can try to defeat Israel but without outside support they would be unable to do it alone.

As for Byzantium I was speaking more to the final battle of 1452. The completeness of it. Emperor dead capital city taken. Byzantium in any form ceases to exist.

Good debate & good points thanks.