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  1. #1
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    Rifleman, I think that creating new Ranger Battalions was probably unnecessary; with Ranger-type training and adequate resources, any regular infantry battalion can do the same thing.

    We'll have to wait and see how Ken clarifies this when he posts, but I think that Ken seems to mean something more along German/Commonwealth lines rather than U.S. lines in this regard. What I mean is what Lord Slim said about any special operation requiring units larger than 5-man parties, that any properly-trained regular infantry unit should and can perform such operations. Slim was in favour of Special Forces like the SAS/SBS; he consciously rejected Commando Forces like the Army and Royal Marine Commandos, the Rangers, and their kind, considering them to be both unnecessary and a drain on the regular infantry battalions. He even believed that Parachute Operations should be a routine task for regular infantry battalions.

    In short, I think what Ken is saying is that all regular infantry battalions should maintain Ranger Battalion-level standards, not just a select few. It must also be said that small Armies are often compelled by their small size to ensure that their regular units are capable of many "special operations" that larger armies can afford to have separate units for.

    During the Second World War, the Imperial General Staff surveyed the CO's of the British and Commonwealth Infantry Battalions in the ETO about the acceptability of regular infantryman for Airborne Forces. The conclusion of the Infantry CO survey was that 2/3 rds of regular infantrymen would successfully pass Airborne Forces standards. Those standards included a 10-mile battle march within 2 hours with full kit, and a 20 mile forced march within 4 hours with full kit, amongst others. By comparison, the regular infantry were required to perform a 5-mile forced march within 1 hour, and a 20-mile route march within 5 hours, 20 minutes, both with full kit.

    By the 1970's, the regular infantry battalions in Commonwealth Armies had taken over most of the tasks that formerly been the preserves of the Airborne and Commando Forces. Since then, the latter have been somewhat "heavied-up" and are used as much as elite shock troops as they are in their original roles. Although the British Airborne Forces have tweaked their standards in recent decades, and are now much closer to the Royal Marines in many ways than they used to be, those standards are hardly inaccessible to regular infantry. In any case, a 6-month basic infantry syllabus would be sufficient to achieve such standards without taking any "shortcuts". A 3- or 4-week Basic Parachute Course could be tacked on at the end. Basic Air Assault and Amphibious Assault training would be part of the aforesaid six months' basic infantry training.

    I maintain some doubt that the standards of the Commando Forces would be quite so accessible, but Slim wrote that his own regular troops in India and Burma had been trained to the same high standards. Many Royal Marines instructors are of the view that a 9-month basic infantry and commando syllabus is necessary to bring select recruits up to such standards without either cutting some corners or losing trainees to injuries because they're being pushed too far too fast.

    My principle objection to going this far is not that I don't believe regular infantry battalions are capaable of the same tasks and missions as Airborne Forces (or the Marines) with proper leadership and training. My principle objection is that most infantry battalions are (at least in my own experience) seriously under-funded for men and resources. Most units get by with just the minimum, if that. It is more "economical" in the view of planners for a few "elite" units to get the resources and funding that would give most regular infantry battalions (provided that they were on a German-style Divisional System or at least a British-style Regimental System, rather than an "individual"-based system) with proper leadership and training, the same capabilities. Otherwise, if I am reading Ken correctly, I quite agree with him.

    At the very least, other than lack of resources, I see no good reason why the Airborne and Air Assault Divisions aren't all RIP-qualified, dispensing with the need for separate Ranger Battalions altogether. Same for the Marine Divisions; other than lack of resources, there seems little good reason for Marine Infantry Battalions to not all be SOC-capable - even the Marine Corps offically agrees on this point, theoretically. So, other than Special Forces, practically all other regular infantry units should be capable of what Marine-MEU-SOC and Ranger Battalions are capable of now.
    Last edited by Norfolk; 10-31-2007 at 11:05 PM.

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Can't add much to that, Norfolk...

    "A decently trained Infantry Battalion can do anything a Ranger battalion can do -- and at far less cost; give any Battalion the training time, gear and money a Ranger Battalion has and he'll be close enough in capability for government work." (emphasis added / kw)
    Your cite of Slim is apropos -- and that comment by him is one of the reasons I named him in my list on the Great Generals thread. Slim 'got it' -- pity about some of the others...

    Only thing I'd add to your excellent post is that while some airborne capability is needed, most missions do not require that capability; what they do require are just well trained and competent units that are trusted to do missions without over supervision. The MEU(SOC) was a good start...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Only thing I'd add to your excellent post is that while some airborne capability is needed, most missions do not require that capability; what they do require are just well trained and competent units that are trusted to do missions without over supervision. The MEU(SOC) was a good start...
    Would it be fair to say then, Ken, that for strictly practical purposes, a smaller Commando Forces element (say Brigade Group/Separate Brigade-sized) would be (theoretically) more efficient than a pair of Airborne/Air Assault Divisions and a Ranger Regiment for Parachute Operations, and leave all the other conventional and special operations (excepting of course those that adhere to Slim's rule) to regular infantry formations and units?
    Last edited by Norfolk; 10-31-2007 at 11:55 PM. Reason: Clarification

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    Before the Ranger battalions were reformed the 82nd was already able to do those missions and a few others to boot. I am of the opinion that many of the so called special operations capabilities are nothing but good infantry training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    Before the Ranger battalions were reformed the 82nd was already able to do those missions and a few others to boot. I am of the opinion that many of the so called special operations capabilities are nothing but good infantry training.
    Totally agree slapout, and so true.

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default We're going from idle conjrcture to real world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Norfolk View Post
    Would it be fair to say then, Ken, that for strictly practical purposes, a smaller Commando Forces element (say Brigade Group/Separate Brigade-sized) would be (theoretically) more efficient than a pair of Airborne/Air Assault Divisions and a Ranger Regiment for Parachute Operations, and leave all the other conventional and special operations (excepting of course those that adhere to Slim's rule) to regular infantry formations and units?
    Heh. I can only give my opinion and not a definitive answer (obviously ). slapout has an excellent point -- the Eighty Twice did in fact train for and perform those missions -- as did the 101st when they were still on jump status. Units in Alaska, Panama and Germany or later, Italy, also trained for them. Got pretty good at them, too. The 1st Ranger Bn was activated because training two Divisions and three Bde sized elements to do those missions was deemed too expensive. The other two Bns were activated because one was not enough.

    I'm not a fan of the Division, any Division, I think they're an anachronism retained to justify GO slots -- of whom we have too many -- but given the current state of the world, I'd be inclined to go with six Separate parachute Bdes answering to an Airborne Corps for most -- which is what we now have. However, I'd up them to three Inf Bns plus the Cav Sqn.

    The remaining Light Inf (12 Bdes) would get the same training less the parachute and all 18 Bdes would be on the ground -- and for most missions -- totally interchangeable.

    Nor am I a fan of the Ranger Regiment (with all due apologies to denizens thereof, including Jorge and a few other friends... ). In fact, if you took those guys and spread them around...

    One caveat -- We need a SOCOM or something similar and their direct action capability and they need a significant deployable Intel and backup element. IMO, that should all be a joint operation and removed from the services -- who also need a direct action capability but on an operational rather than a strategic scale. Tactical DA capability should be at Corps level, OpCon to Bdes as required. I'm inclined to think the SF Gps should revert to the Army and concentrate on the UW / ID missions but some form of effort with that SOCOM would certainly be necessary -- that needs some thought and study. not by me, I can't affect anything; by the Army and SOCOM..

    That'll probably fire up some people who'll say I don't understand. I do, been there done that. All of it -- the issue is political and parochial whereas it should be nothing but effectiveness. Sadly, my perception is that is not the case.

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    [QUOTE=Ken White;29872]
    I'm not a fan of the Division, any Division, I think they're an anachronism retained to justify GO slots -- of whom we have too many -- but given the current state of the world, I'd be inclined to go with six Separate parachute Bdes answering to an Airborne Corps for most -- which is what we now have. However, I'd up them to three Inf Bns plus the Cav Sqn.
    I think that's Col. MacGregor's idea. That's way above the level I knew anything about (the way things worked just got sort of hazy for a young E-5 when you got above battalion level ) but I think he makes a sensible argument. He certainly articulates his position well.

    Nor am I a fan of the Ranger Regiment (with all due apologies to denizens thereof, including Jorge and a few other friends... ). In fact, if you took those guys and spread them around...
    I think your former Marineness is showing. Wasn't that the reason Raider Battalions were disbanded?

    One caveat -- We need a SOCOM or something similar and their direct action capability and they need a significant deployable Intel and backup element. IMO, that should all be a joint operation and removed from the services --
    CIA controlled perhaps?

    I'm inclined to think the SF Gps should revert to the Army and concentrate on the UW / ID missions but some form of effort with that SOCOM would certainly be necessary -- that needs some thought and study. not by me, I can't affect anything; by the Army and SOCOM..
    Again, it occurs to me that not all WWII OSS operatives were Army. Some were civilians. Should the CIA take over/handle all UW?
    Last edited by Rifleman; 11-02-2007 at 05:17 PM.
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  8. #8
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Yea and nay...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rifleman View Post
    I think that's Col. MacGregor's idea. That's way above the level I knew anything about (the way things worked just got sort of hazy for a young E-5 when you got above battalion level ) but I think he makes a sensible argument. He certainly articulates his position well.
    Wasn't MacGregor's idea, that had been around since WW I; got greater emphasis after each succeeding war and MacGregor just stated it well, as you say. He also stated it at a time when it was feasible to implement it -- if only halfheartedly.

    I think your former Marineness is showing. Wasn't that the reason Raider Battalions were disbanded?
    Maybe not -- I think there should be Raider Bns and no SEAL teams (different environment, parameters and training requirements than the Army, most notably a short notice employment probability); I do not think there should be a Ranger Regiment. I contend those missions can be done by a properly trained and resourced Infantry Bde. The mission in peacetime (fewer training dollars which is one factor that lead to the creation of the Ranger Bns) should be rotated among the Airborne Bdes which will improve the training and capability of all of them.

    DoD needs to sit down and sort out the direct action and strategic recon missions and figure out what is entailed. I'd prefer a totally SOCOM DA outfit, no Army, no Navy, no AF, no Marines -- a true sixth service -- but I know that the Rice Bowl protection syndrome is unlikely to allow that. The down side of that is that SOCOM is already 'reluctant' to cooperate and share intel and that syndrome would be exacerbated (that is a generalization and there are exceptions); not good...

    CIA controlled perhaps? . . . Again, it occurs to me that not all WWII OSS operatives were Army. Some were civilians. Should the CIA take over/handle all UW?
    Some were also Marines and Navy. Langley needs to keep its covert DA capability but they should not take over all UW -- or DA msns (or even many missions in either domain). The nation also needs a military DA capability. I think UW and ID should be an Army Mission, strategic DA, recon and direct support intel for that DA a SOCOM mission. Others will differ.
    Last edited by Ken White; 11-02-2007 at 05:57 PM. Reason: typo

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    Default At the very least, reform the Airborne.

    At the very least, tasking the 82nd Airborne Division as the sole Airborne Forces Formation in the US Army would be much more sensible. Keep the 4 PIR-based BCT's that the Division has now, and bring those BCT's up to full strength by amalgamating the Ranger Regiment with them. Re-assign the Pathfinder Company of the 101 Airborne Division to the 82nd along with most of its Aviation troops and equipment, and convert the 101st back to a regular infantry division.

    This way, the 82nd Airborne Division, the only Airborne Formation in the US Army that has had an unbroken existence as an Airborne Division (the 17th Airborne Division was converted into the 101st Airborne Division back in the mid-1950's, the 101st having been disbanded right after WWII), would have the full range of Airborne tasks and capabilities in a single Formation. It would be trained, TOE'd, and tasked for Parachute Operations, Airmobile Operations, Commando Operations, etc. Clearly, such a Formation would be ideal for both Rapid-Reaction and Strategic Reserve roles.

    Given the the expense of having not less than five Airborne Formations at present in the Army (the 82nd/101st Abn Divs, the 4th BCT/25th Inf Div, 173rd Abn Bge, and the 75th Ranger Rgt), it would make sense to economise where possible and consolidate training and equipment as much as possible in a single Formation. The 82nd Airborne Division is the senior Formation in this regard with an unbroken operational status as an Airborne Formation; it is located at Fort Bragg, where it can work with the Special Forces and provide them with support in DA operations and close to Camp Lejeune where it can participate in Amphibious Training and Operations (as the Rangers do) as well as Joint Operations with the USMC; it already works with the Air Force at Pope AFB on practically a daily basis anyway; and Fort Bragg is a much larger training area than Fort Campbell.

    The Army needs regular infantry divisions: convert all the Light Infantry Divisions (and the 101st Airborne Division - let them keep their Airborne title just like the 1st Cav Div keeps its Cavalry title, even though it's formally an Armored Div) back to regular Infantry Divisions (except for the 10th Mtn Div - make it a real Mountain Division infact, not just name), run everyone in the 82nd through RIP and give them the resources the Rangers now get, and let the 82nd Airborne Division handle most of the rapid-reaction Light Formation role stuff. Organize Airborne Infantry Battalions and Brigades for Expeditionary Operations, much as the Marines do, and especially like the MEU-SOCs. Good stuff, and it would make for a more effective and efficient Army, and Airborne, than exists now.
    Last edited by Norfolk; 11-03-2007 at 03:08 AM.

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