An Airborne Expeditionary Unit?

[Ken White]

I think that's Col. MacGregor's idea. That's way above the level I knew anything about (the way things worked just got sort of hazy for a young E-5 when you got above battalion level ) but I think he makes a sensible argument. He certainly articulates his position well.

Wasn't MacGregor's idea, that had been around since WW I; got greater emphasis after each succeeding war and MacGregor just stated it well, as you say. He also stated it at a time when it was feasible to implement it -- if only halfheartedly.

I think your former Marineness is showing. Wasn't that the reason Raider Battalions were disbanded?

Maybe not -- I think there should be Raider Bns and no SEAL teams (different environment, parameters and training requirements than the Army, most notably a short notice employment probability); I do not think there should be a Ranger Regiment. I contend those missions can be done by a properly trained and resourced Infantry Bde. The mission in peacetime (fewer training dollars which is one factor that lead to the creation of the Ranger Bns) should be rotated among the Airborne Bdes which will improve the training and capability of all of them.

DoD needs to sit down and sort out the direct action and strategic recon missions and figure out what is entailed. I'd prefer a totally SOCOM DA outfit, no Army, no Navy, no AF, no Marines -- a true sixth service -- but I know that the Rice Bowl protection syndrome is unlikely to allow that. The down side of that is that SOCOM is already 'reluctant' to cooperate and share intel and that syndrome would be exacerbated (that is a generalization and there are exceptions); not good...

CIA controlled perhaps? . . . Again, it occurs to me that not all WWII OSS operatives were Army. Some were civilians. Should the CIA take over/handle all UW?

Some were also Marines and Navy. Langley needs to keep its covert DA capability but they should not take over all UW -- or DA msns (or even many missions in either domain). The nation also needs a military DA capability. I think UW and ID should be an Army Mission, strategic DA, recon and direct support intel for that DA a SOCOM mission. Others will differ.

[Norfolk]

At the very least, tasking the 82nd Airborne Division as the sole Airborne Forces Formation in the US Army would be much more sensible. Keep the 4 PIR-based BCT's that the Division has now, and bring those BCT's up to full strength by amalgamating the Ranger Regiment with them. Re-assign the Pathfinder Company of the 101 Airborne Division to the 82nd along with most of its Aviation troops and equipment, and convert the 101st back to a regular infantry division.

This way, the 82nd Airborne Division, the only Airborne Formation in the US Army that has had an unbroken existence as an Airborne Division (the 17th Airborne Division was converted into the 101st Airborne Division back in the mid-1950's, the 101st having been disbanded right after WWII), would have the full range of Airborne tasks and capabilities in a single Formation. It would be trained, TOE'd, and tasked for Parachute Operations, Airmobile Operations, Commando Operations, etc. Clearly, such a Formation would be ideal for both Rapid-Reaction and Strategic Reserve roles.

Given the the expense of having not less than five Airborne Formations at present in the Army (the 82nd/101st Abn Divs, the 4th BCT/25th Inf Div, 173rd Abn Bge, and the 75th Ranger Rgt), it would make sense to economise where possible and consolidate training and equipment as much as possible in a single Formation. The 82nd Airborne Division is the senior Formation in this regard with an unbroken operational status as an Airborne Formation; it is located at Fort Bragg, where it can work with the Special Forces and provide them with support in DA operations and close to Camp Lejeune where it can participate in Amphibious Training and Operations (as the Rangers do) as well as Joint Operations with the USMC; it already works with the Air Force at Pope AFB on practically a daily basis anyway; and Fort Bragg is a much larger training area than Fort Campbell.

The Army needs regular infantry divisions: convert all the Light Infantry Divisions (and the 101st Airborne Division - let them keep their Airborne title just like the 1st Cav Div keeps its Cavalry title, even though it's formally an Armored Div) back to regular Infantry Divisions (except for the 10th Mtn Div - make it a real Mountain Division infact, not just name), run everyone in the 82nd through RIP and give them the resources the Rangers now get, and let the 82nd Airborne Division handle most of the rapid-reaction Light Formation role stuff. Organize Airborne Infantry Battalions and Brigades for Expeditionary Operations, much as the Marines do, and especially like the MEU-SOCs. Good stuff, and it would make for a more effective and efficient Army, and Airborne, than exists now.

[Ken White]

The 17th was not "converted into" the 101st. Both Divisions were inactivated after WW II (fall of '45 for both). The 17th has never been reactivated. The 101st was reactivated in 1948 and again in 1954, both times as a Training Division (not airborne). It was transferred to Fort Campbell and reorganized as an airborne division in 1956-57. In 1968 it was removed from parachute status and became an Airmobile division. It still bears the title Airborne but it is not parachute qualified; it is effectively a light infantry division now and has been since '68.

Most of what you suggest for the 82d has been in place and operational for some time. All US Divisions have an Aviation Bde and the Division Aviation Bdes are now standardizing so the 82d doesn't need aircraft from the 101st. Tenth Mountain does a lot of real mountain training at several locations. Bragg is larger than Campbell but it also has environmental constraints that Campbell does not and both Divisions normally do a lot of off-post training in any event.

Experience has shown that the strategic and rapid reaction missions can often conflict. Thus I think that both PaCom and EuCom would object to your stealing 4/25 and the 173d from them.

I suspect the answer from the airborne Mafia would be "we don' need no steenkin' reform..."

That doesn't address the 75th which has morphed into something other than the original intent, a necessary mission -- though I could quibble about the details, somone has to do it. They will fight to stay as they are because SOCOM picks up the not inconsiderable bill.

[Norfolk]

I stand corrected. Thanks Ken.

I thought the 101st's Aviation Brigade was much larger and more capable than the 82's - that the 101st was able to lift an entire brigade (hence the 101st's only Parachute Unit being an entire company of Pathfinders) at a time while the 82nd was only able to lift a battalion at a time. I may be mistaken in that regard apparently, too.

I'm sure the Lawndarts really would object to many of the "reforms" I propose, especially junking the Parachute Brigades in Alaska and Italy - and there is quite some merit in that. I was envisioning (though I neglected to put pen to paper here) that Fort Bragg would be the Divisional Home Station, but 3 of its 4 organic Parachute Brigades would be located at other Brigade Posts across the country. Each Parachute Brigade would be operationally attached to one of the active Army Corps.

Besides, I'm pretty sure the squaddies in the 82nd would be quite happy to take RIP.

And it was the 11th Airborne Division, not the 17th, - my mistake, I apologize - that served alongside the 82nd as one of the Army's only two permanent Parachute Divisions after WWII (until converted into the 24 th Infantry Division in Germany in 1958) - and brief re-activation in the mid-sixties being converted once again and of course this time, it was as the 1st Cav Div (Airmobile) with an organic Parachute Brigade.

[slapout9]

This is nit pickin,but the 101 is now 101 Air Assault they are rahter proud of that distinction. The 11th was reactivated as the 11th Air Assault Division (Test), then abosorbed into the 1st Cav(Airmoble) Division. One of my 1st Squad leaders SSGT Dickey Flett was from the Air Cav which had one Brigade Airborne when they were first created.

[Distiller]

All these large airborne formations are of no use in a real war.
How do you deploy them? Parachuting into a SAM infested red zone? Got some airlifters too many?
Once they jumped they are just light infantry, since no U.S. airborne unit has BMD style vehicles to make the final dash to the objective.

And I don't even start talking about supplying a brigade from the air ...

Air-transportable yes (as much as possible).
Airborne only up to battalion level (mechanized airborne = cavalry, if possible).
Airmobile - fancy word. Every light infantry unit should be capable of that. Own dedicated formations? No. And why? Airbornes don't have C-17 attached to them, either.


@ all this "Special" forces thing: What about getting regular infantry units into shape, instead of creating the fifth or six service branch?
But isn't it, that everybody tries to get away from dirty and dangerous and into more technicalized units, and those who can't make it end up in infantry? Negative selection. And then if you need infantry units that really do the job you have to start anew (and pin SOCOM on them)?
SOCOM should be really limited to politically/diplomatically/militarily "toxic" missions.

[Ken White]

All these large airborne formations are of no use in a real war.
How do you deploy them? Parachuting into a SAM infested red zone? Got some airlifters too many?

That would be sort of dumb. Why would one do that? Why not go where the SAMs are not?

Once they jumped they are just light infantry, since no U.S. airborne unit has BMD style vehicles to make the final dash to the objective.[

One presumes you've never fought good light infantry. They can really ruin your day and contrary to many myths, they do not end up being speed bumps for tanks. As for BMDs, a really poor little vehicle that offers great mobility and little else. I suppose what and where the objective was might determine ones need to dash...

And I don't even start talking about supplying a brigade from the air ...

Why not; with air superiority, it can be done easily today and has been done with difficulty in the past with smaller birds. Though I don't think anyone really contemplates that at this time.

Air-transportable yes (as much as possible).

Bad idea -- then you have the minuses of 'light infantry' and none of the pluses of Armor nor the flexibility of parachutes. Plus, how are you going to initially seize that airfield for your air trans troops to land?

Airborne only up to battalion level (mechanized airborne = cavalry, if possible).

That's the doctrine; higher formations exist for training control, a godfather role (to protect little battalions from those in the system who would hurt them -- or don't know what they can do... ) and limited tactical employment when feasible.

Airmobile - fancy word. Every light infantry unit should be capable of that...

Agreed.

Own dedicated formations? No. And why? Airbornes don't have C-17 attached to them, either.

I have no idea what you meant there.

@ all this "Special" forces thing: What about getting regular infantry units into shape, instead of creating the fifth or six service branch?

That's happening here; how about yours?

But isn't it, that everybody tries to get away from dirty and dangerous and into more technicalized units, and those who can't make it end up in infantry? Negative selection...

Once upon a time; pretty much passe now. We finally realized that Infantry takes as much skill as most; more than many. Your info seems dated in this as well as the foregoing.

...And then if you need infantry units that really do the job you have to start anew (and pin SOCOM on them)?
SOCOM should be really limited to politically/diplomatically/militarily "toxic" missions.

That effectively is the case with only slight exceptions. Most of those exceptions are due to interservice / intraservice turf and political battles more than operational concerns or TODAYS infantry capability. I don't know any Armed forces that escape that foolishness...