An Airborne Expeditionary Unit?

[Ken White]

Would it be fair to say then, Ken, that for strictly practical purposes, a smaller Commando Forces element (say Brigade Group/Separate Brigade-sized) would be (theoretically) more efficient than a pair of Airborne/Air Assault Divisions and a Ranger Regiment for Parachute Operations, and leave all the other conventional and special operations (excepting of course those that adhere to Slim's rule) to regular infantry formations and units?

Heh. I can only give my opinion and not a definitive answer (obviously ). slapout has an excellent point -- the Eighty Twice did in fact train for and perform those missions -- as did the 101st when they were still on jump status. Units in Alaska, Panama and Germany or later, Italy, also trained for them. Got pretty good at them, too. The 1st Ranger Bn was activated because training two Divisions and three Bde sized elements to do those missions was deemed too expensive. The other two Bns were activated because one was not enough.

I'm not a fan of the Division, any Division, I think they're an anachronism retained to justify GO slots -- of whom we have too many -- but given the current state of the world, I'd be inclined to go with six Separate parachute Bdes answering to an Airborne Corps for most -- which is what we now have. However, I'd up them to three Inf Bns plus the Cav Sqn.

The remaining Light Inf (12 Bdes) would get the same training less the parachute and all 18 Bdes would be on the ground -- and for most missions -- totally interchangeable.

Nor am I a fan of the Ranger Regiment (with all due apologies to denizens thereof, including Jorge and a few other friends... ). In fact, if you took those guys and spread them around...

One caveat -- We need a SOCOM or something similar and their direct action capability and they need a significant deployable Intel and backup element. IMO, that should all be a joint operation and removed from the services -- who also need a direct action capability but on an operational rather than a strategic scale. Tactical DA capability should be at Corps level, OpCon to Bdes as required. I'm inclined to think the SF Gps should revert to the Army and concentrate on the UW / ID missions but some form of effort with that SOCOM would certainly be necessary -- that needs some thought and study. not by me, I can't affect anything; by the Army and SOCOM..

That'll probably fire up some people who'll say I don't understand. I do, been there done that. All of it -- the issue is political and parochial whereas it should be nothing but effectiveness. Sadly, my perception is that is not the case.

[Rifleman]

[QUOTE=Ken White;29872]

I'm not a fan of the Division, any Division, I think they're an anachronism retained to justify GO slots -- of whom we have too many -- but given the current state of the world, I'd be inclined to go with six Separate parachute Bdes answering to an Airborne Corps for most -- which is what we now have. However, I'd up them to three Inf Bns plus the Cav Sqn.

I think that's Col. MacGregor's idea. That's way above the level I knew anything about (the way things worked just got sort of hazy for a young E-5 when you got above battalion level ) but I think he makes a sensible argument. He certainly articulates his position well.

Nor am I a fan of the Ranger Regiment (with all due apologies to denizens thereof, including Jorge and a few other friends... ). In fact, if you took those guys and spread them around...

I think your former Marineness is showing. Wasn't that the reason Raider Battalions were disbanded?

One caveat -- We need a SOCOM or something similar and their direct action capability and they need a significant deployable Intel and backup element. IMO, that should all be a joint operation and removed from the services --

CIA controlled perhaps?

I'm inclined to think the SF Gps should revert to the Army and concentrate on the UW / ID missions but some form of effort with that SOCOM would certainly be necessary -- that needs some thought and study. not by me, I can't affect anything; by the Army and SOCOM..

Again, it occurs to me that not all WWII OSS operatives were Army. Some were civilians. Should the CIA take over/handle all UW?

[Ken White]

I think that's Col. MacGregor's idea. That's way above the level I knew anything about (the way things worked just got sort of hazy for a young E-5 when you got above battalion level ) but I think he makes a sensible argument. He certainly articulates his position well.

Wasn't MacGregor's idea, that had been around since WW I; got greater emphasis after each succeeding war and MacGregor just stated it well, as you say. He also stated it at a time when it was feasible to implement it -- if only halfheartedly.

I think your former Marineness is showing. Wasn't that the reason Raider Battalions were disbanded?

Maybe not -- I think there should be Raider Bns and no SEAL teams (different environment, parameters and training requirements than the Army, most notably a short notice employment probability); I do not think there should be a Ranger Regiment. I contend those missions can be done by a properly trained and resourced Infantry Bde. The mission in peacetime (fewer training dollars which is one factor that lead to the creation of the Ranger Bns) should be rotated among the Airborne Bdes which will improve the training and capability of all of them.

DoD needs to sit down and sort out the direct action and strategic recon missions and figure out what is entailed. I'd prefer a totally SOCOM DA outfit, no Army, no Navy, no AF, no Marines -- a true sixth service -- but I know that the Rice Bowl protection syndrome is unlikely to allow that. The down side of that is that SOCOM is already 'reluctant' to cooperate and share intel and that syndrome would be exacerbated (that is a generalization and there are exceptions); not good...

CIA controlled perhaps? . . . Again, it occurs to me that not all WWII OSS operatives were Army. Some were civilians. Should the CIA take over/handle all UW?

Some were also Marines and Navy. Langley needs to keep its covert DA capability but they should not take over all UW -- or DA msns (or even many missions in either domain). The nation also needs a military DA capability. I think UW and ID should be an Army Mission, strategic DA, recon and direct support intel for that DA a SOCOM mission. Others will differ.

[Norfolk]

At the very least, tasking the 82nd Airborne Division as the sole Airborne Forces Formation in the US Army would be much more sensible. Keep the 4 PIR-based BCT's that the Division has now, and bring those BCT's up to full strength by amalgamating the Ranger Regiment with them. Re-assign the Pathfinder Company of the 101 Airborne Division to the 82nd along with most of its Aviation troops and equipment, and convert the 101st back to a regular infantry division.

This way, the 82nd Airborne Division, the only Airborne Formation in the US Army that has had an unbroken existence as an Airborne Division (the 17th Airborne Division was converted into the 101st Airborne Division back in the mid-1950's, the 101st having been disbanded right after WWII), would have the full range of Airborne tasks and capabilities in a single Formation. It would be trained, TOE'd, and tasked for Parachute Operations, Airmobile Operations, Commando Operations, etc. Clearly, such a Formation would be ideal for both Rapid-Reaction and Strategic Reserve roles.

Given the the expense of having not less than five Airborne Formations at present in the Army (the 82nd/101st Abn Divs, the 4th BCT/25th Inf Div, 173rd Abn Bge, and the 75th Ranger Rgt), it would make sense to economise where possible and consolidate training and equipment as much as possible in a single Formation. The 82nd Airborne Division is the senior Formation in this regard with an unbroken operational status as an Airborne Formation; it is located at Fort Bragg, where it can work with the Special Forces and provide them with support in DA operations and close to Camp Lejeune where it can participate in Amphibious Training and Operations (as the Rangers do) as well as Joint Operations with the USMC; it already works with the Air Force at Pope AFB on practically a daily basis anyway; and Fort Bragg is a much larger training area than Fort Campbell.

The Army needs regular infantry divisions: convert all the Light Infantry Divisions (and the 101st Airborne Division - let them keep their Airborne title just like the 1st Cav Div keeps its Cavalry title, even though it's formally an Armored Div) back to regular Infantry Divisions (except for the 10th Mtn Div - make it a real Mountain Division infact, not just name), run everyone in the 82nd through RIP and give them the resources the Rangers now get, and let the 82nd Airborne Division handle most of the rapid-reaction Light Formation role stuff. Organize Airborne Infantry Battalions and Brigades for Expeditionary Operations, much as the Marines do, and especially like the MEU-SOCs. Good stuff, and it would make for a more effective and efficient Army, and Airborne, than exists now.

[Ken White]

The 17th was not "converted into" the 101st. Both Divisions were inactivated after WW II (fall of '45 for both). The 17th has never been reactivated. The 101st was reactivated in 1948 and again in 1954, both times as a Training Division (not airborne). It was transferred to Fort Campbell and reorganized as an airborne division in 1956-57. In 1968 it was removed from parachute status and became an Airmobile division. It still bears the title Airborne but it is not parachute qualified; it is effectively a light infantry division now and has been since '68.

Most of what you suggest for the 82d has been in place and operational for some time. All US Divisions have an Aviation Bde and the Division Aviation Bdes are now standardizing so the 82d doesn't need aircraft from the 101st. Tenth Mountain does a lot of real mountain training at several locations. Bragg is larger than Campbell but it also has environmental constraints that Campbell does not and both Divisions normally do a lot of off-post training in any event.

Experience has shown that the strategic and rapid reaction missions can often conflict. Thus I think that both PaCom and EuCom would object to your stealing 4/25 and the 173d from them.

I suspect the answer from the airborne Mafia would be "we don' need no steenkin' reform..."

That doesn't address the 75th which has morphed into something other than the original intent, a necessary mission -- though I could quibble about the details, somone has to do it. They will fight to stay as they are because SOCOM picks up the not inconsiderable bill.

[Norfolk]

I stand corrected. Thanks Ken.

I thought the 101st's Aviation Brigade was much larger and more capable than the 82's - that the 101st was able to lift an entire brigade (hence the 101st's only Parachute Unit being an entire company of Pathfinders) at a time while the 82nd was only able to lift a battalion at a time. I may be mistaken in that regard apparently, too.

I'm sure the Lawndarts really would object to many of the "reforms" I propose, especially junking the Parachute Brigades in Alaska and Italy - and there is quite some merit in that. I was envisioning (though I neglected to put pen to paper here) that Fort Bragg would be the Divisional Home Station, but 3 of its 4 organic Parachute Brigades would be located at other Brigade Posts across the country. Each Parachute Brigade would be operationally attached to one of the active Army Corps.

Besides, I'm pretty sure the squaddies in the 82nd would be quite happy to take RIP.

And it was the 11th Airborne Division, not the 17th, - my mistake, I apologize - that served alongside the 82nd as one of the Army's only two permanent Parachute Divisions after WWII (until converted into the 24 th Infantry Division in Germany in 1958) - and brief re-activation in the mid-sixties being converted once again and of course this time, it was as the 1st Cav Div (Airmobile) with an organic Parachute Brigade.

[slapout9]

This is nit pickin,but the 101 is now 101 Air Assault they are rahter proud of that distinction. The 11th was reactivated as the 11th Air Assault Division (Test), then abosorbed into the 1st Cav(Airmoble) Division. One of my 1st Squad leaders SSGT Dickey Flett was from the Air Cav which had one Brigade Airborne when they were first created.