Russia and the US

[Ken White]

I'm aware of the facts in your first paragraph but I suggest what he did say gives a clue to what he did not say. We'll see.

Agree that we are not being clever on world strategy; I think we got tunnel vision and are just now starting to realize that. Probably some in high places in DC still haven't realized it.

The war isn't weakening us all that much though it certainly isn't strengthening us. Only concern to me is that someone will over estimate the weakening effect...

I totally agree with your last paragraph and spent a lot of the early 90s fulminating about the errors of Bush 41 and Clinton in trying to be clever and in the process, alienating Russia. Dumbb -- With two 'b's...

We live in interesting times...

[MattC86]

I totally agree with your last paragraph and spent a lot of the early 90s fulminating about the errors of Bush 41 and Clinton in trying to be clever and in the process, alienating Russia. Dumbb -- With two 'b's...

We live in interesting times...

In regards to Russia, I think the errors are at least partly understandable given that our Big Enemy of fifty years had suddenly disintegrated. Clinton's foreign relations people were groping for a new US strategic concept for their entire eight years in office.

Additionally, I'm not sure exactly how befriending an authoritarian, corrupt oligarchy is in our interests - or are you saying better relations with Russia in the early-to-mid-90s would have prevented Russia's slipping to it's position today?

Matt

[Ken White]

In regards to Russia, I think the errors are at least partly understandable given that our Big Enemy of fifty years had suddenly disintegrated. Clinton's foreign relations people were groping for a new US strategic concept for their entire eight years in office.

Additionally, I'm not sure exactly how befriending an authoritarian, corrupt oligarchy is in our interests - or are you saying better relations with Russia in the early-to-mid-90s would have prevented Russia's slipping to it's position today?

Matt

I agree they were groping -- so was Bush 41 -- and it was a whole new world. Further, the lack of direction was fed by a lack of intelligence (apparently). Those understandable things were compounded by a lack of vision and the old American ego; "Nana-nana nana -- we won!"

It would have been in our interest to help because that may have precluded the oligarchy turning into government by KGB. They needed money, we waste more money in a week than it would have taken to buy some of their stuff (all sorts, including oil), like AN 74s for which we could find a good use. Stuff for other people.

That may or may not have changed things for the future but the condescension and arrogance we showed wasn't helpful. We do that way too often and it never helps, usually does a lot of harm.

We're still good at that; saw last week where in the messages we sent to Poland and The Czech Republic re: antimissile stuff, we provided responses that they only need to sign and return-- which caused both nations to go into the diplomatic stall mode. Rightly so. That isn't just arrogant, it's stupid.

You can kick a dog just so many times and sooner or later it's going to turn around and bite you -- and Nations aren't as tolerant as dogs...

[Brian Hanley]

... Further, the lack of direction was fed by a lack of intelligence (apparently). Those understandable things were compounded by a lack of vision and the old American ego; "Nana-nana nana -- we won!"

It would have been in our interest to help because that may have precluded the oligarchy turning into government by KGB.

Yes, with caveats. We should have concentrated on trade and opening treaty relations, doing things like giving them mutual passport recognition a la Europe to build bridges. There is an excellent book about the time. "Collision and Collusion: The Strange Case of Western Aid to Eastern Europe" by Wedel.

I'd say it was compounded by academia churning out Russian Studies doctorates who got ahead by quoting each other. Very few spent more than a few days or weeks in the USSR (highly supervised) if that. The fate of Russia was sealed by Clinton's decision to let academia loose to test their theories, as in "Shock Treatment" and giving the field to the 5-Star aid contractors.

In fact, the amount of aid loans and the way they were given were worse than nothing at all. Imagine what would happen in the USA if a nation came in and handed out unsecured loans starting at $1 billion and up to $1 trillion based on the ability of the petitioners to deliver buzz-words in Arabic and kept that up for 4 years, then pulled the plug?