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  1. #1
    Council Member Ender's Avatar
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    There is a great deal that has been added over the last few days that has "formed" my thinking a bit more (which is great). I have to admit a number of these more recent posts have given me a great deal to think about. I will abate my seeming assault on all things Blue and concede that there are any number of things official and unofficial that the USAF brings to the fight (here we go) that no one else can. (Give me a sec...)

    I have lived in a pretty Air Force centric part of the world for awhile now and it has not been hard of late, to find an airman (of any rank or rate) around here who has had any difficulty telling me why I (we) need them. I have to admit most of what they have said and what has been posted here re: strategic deterrent, evils of force parity, ICBM's, space, the "long bomb" etc... is pretty convincing. But what is most convincing for me and what has sealed it over the last couple days is not so much what I have been told, but what I haven't. Ask a senior air force person questions about popular subjects long enough and there is just a certain point where the conversation has to end because they really can't talk about the very basics of what they do. I now loosely understand that the USAF has their hands in many (important and vital) pies that are not fit for public (or my specific) consumption and just because I don't either like, understand or appreciate the importance of those "pies" does not mean we should take an axe to one of our own.

    Slapout, your most recent post and the one before it "Tater's Guide" really clarified the issue for me, Carl you had a major impact as well. We are really all in this together, no one of us wants to win this (ALL) more than the other. The debate for me intellectually when distilled, is not whether I think the USAF should really be abolished (I don't) but much deeper than that, whether or not our entire force structure is aligned in a manner that is oriented towards flexible, efficient lethality. Are the branches, all of them, defunct? By that I mean do we really need to divide here and there, on every little nickel and dime, issue, program and initiative? We have enough enemies on the outside without creating them on the inside and a Divided We Stand, United We Fall DoD just does not make sense to me. What does make sense though is to have a completely functional, completely flexible unified fighting force...standardize all of the gear, (AND I MEAN EVERYTHING) so that any one single fighting component is interchangeable with any other comparable platform anywhere across the spectrum. I am thinking of a model "parallel" to the US Army's Stryker vehicle concept but only on a macro scale an not just with gear and guns but also and more importantly with applications and capabilities. Make our systems stackable and train everyone to a common standard under a unified banner. Sit everyone down and make them sing the same music. Make sure no one other team member is playing a tune that any other team member can not either play himself or appreciate and there will be a serious decline in not only our blue on blue but also our collateral damage as well. Team A vs Team B bull#### sucks and I know it as well as anyone.

    All of my studies outside of martial academia end up revolving around two "roles," domestic and foreign policies. In essence we ideally (try to) handle those outside differently than we do those inside (neither better nor worse, just differently.) The questions a National Defense Force (of sorts) with separate foreign and domestic arms and applications raise a few questions for me:
    -How would we strip our separate identities without actually stripping our separate identities?
    -How would we reconfigure everything to a semi standardized model, divide the wealth so to speak to one mouth and still maintain that capitalist competitive edge while not looking like the socialist bastards we just beat? If any bunch is the anti individualist it is the DoD and that is okay...
    -Slapout is right, nature is pretty friggin infinitely smart, and elegantly simple too. Why can't we combine the basics (martial nature) with technology (martial nurture) and simplify everything? My junior read on the favored passtime of the typically elderly, experienced and powerful, warfare- with most of us serving pawn to the General participant, is one that holds strategy, operations and tactics, at their core have remained relatively unchanged over the centuries.

    Information Age or not, we are not so different or developed now than our ancestors were then. Until someone can conclusively tell me how they did certain things back in the day (like build the pyramids etc..) my "We're So Cool and sooo Smart Jury" is still out. In almost every aspect the essence is still the same but our application, or all of the details have shifted over the years. An example: Our warrior forbears studied the hunting methods and techniques of falcons as well as lions (two prime predator examples that may have some bearing to this current topic) as much then as we study them now and while our specific purposes for doing so were not completely parallel, they are strikingly similar. Are we forsaking the "old" for the "new" and how do we marry those worlds without either further entrenching ourselves in an antiquated force structure model ORRRR...losing our traditions and values by forgetting where we come from, what we have been through (collectively and individually) and why all that matters and makes us right at the end of the day?

    (As an aside: The only way I would be okay with realizing any of the scandalous thoughts of standardization I have in my head now would be, if by scrapping even the USMC, we were able to at least keep all of and only the Marine drill instructors and Boot Camp experiences- call everyone whatever you want after the fact but at least they would start off on the right foot! )
    Last edited by Ender; 11-18-2007 at 04:38 AM. Reason: Polish a million times, reinspect and still find an edge...

  2. #2
    Council Member Ender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
    OK, I'll bite. How do you justify this statement?
    I have recently been accused of indulging in pith, vinegar and general snarkiness of which I am wholly and completely guilty (mea culpa) so I am going to try to pitch softly here.

    I am going to assume from your handle and first posting that you are still a Marine in the making... (if this is untrue forgive me for the ASS-U-ME sequence) If AFTER serving as a Fleet Marine you would like me to justify the statement for you I would more than happy to revisit the topic and detail, at great length and ad nauseum anything you may not have learned. If my assumption is correct and you are a future Marine you will learn the answer well enough without my help.

    If I have read you wrong, and you are in fact an active duty, or prior service Marine who is posting from or around VMI my reply is: How well do you know your Marine Corps history? Wars are, in function a series of struggles and conflicts (read: BATTLES.) It is my humble opinion that it really helps (if you want to win) that you need to win these battles in order to win the war. Believe it or not, but the fate of our nation, our reality as we know it today, is really, truly, honest to God only what it is because of a couple of wars and a few decisive battles. A handful of those critical struggles were fought and solely won by U.S. Marines. Fact. Take away the Corps, and I know this is a theoretical exercise here, but I would argue the very face of the world would be different than it is now...eg: the Kaiser would have won and who knows what then would have become of young Adolph, the Jews, Israel or any other number of associated factors that derived from the just First World War setting the stage it did... Want to fast forward? Let's not forget the whole Pacific Theater thing and the Japanese, that would be what without the Marines? Beating Germany without simultaneously (or as closed to) taking the Japanese tiger out would have only been a partial beating and a war undone...

    I was not saying, in that reference, that we owe our singular existence to the efforts of ONLY the USMC. The comment you bit upon was pushed with the spirit of brevity and my not wanting to (appear to be) defend(ing) that which I thought (and still think) needs no defense. If you are not satisfied, fall into another category or would like elaboration I would be happy to tell you why I think we owe our lives to the Marines in another thread or offline.

    Best
    Last edited by Ender; 11-18-2007 at 05:24 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    I have recently been accused of indulging in pith, vinegar and general snarkiness of which I am wholly and completely guilty (mea culpa) so I am going to try to pitch softly here.
    Unlike an ideal professional discussion, we can't hold these over beers, so some snarkiness is needed, IMO, to keep it from getting too dry and haughty.

    Believe it or not, but the fate of our nation, our reality as we know it today, is really, truly, honest to God only what it is because of a couple of wars and a few decisive battles. A handful of those critical struggles were fought and solely won by U.S. Marines. Fact.
    Well, your first assumption was wrong, but no offense taken. I am an active duty Marine, on my 5th deployment to the CENTCOM AOR since 2003. I simply don't buy the line that the Marine Corps is essential to national survival. I'm as proud of my chosen branch of service as the next Marine, but I think we have a tendency to delude ourselves and exaggerate our own "greatness". We've had some great tactical and operational victories, but there have been very few instances where the Marine Corps was strategically decisive in American history. As a retired SgtMaj at the Institute once put it, "America doesn't need a Marine Corps, America wants a Marine Corps." I'd ask you to expound on your statements, but I think we've hijacked this thread enough.
    Last edited by VMI_Marine; 11-20-2007 at 06:13 PM.

  4. #4
    Council Member Ender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
    Unlike an ideal professional discussion, we can't hold these over beers, so some snarkiness is needed, IMO, to keep it from getting too dry and haughty.
    Well said, top to bottom.

    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
    Well, your first assumption was wrong, but no offense taken.
    I knew I was doomed as soon as "assume" hit my screen.

    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
    I'm as proud of my chosen branch of service as the next Marine, but I think we have a tendency to delude ourselves and exaggerate our own "greatness."
    Boasting does not help and I agree there is a great bit more Yut with the Corps than there needs to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
    We've had some great tactical and operational victories, but there have been very few instances where the Marine Corps was strategically decisive in American history.
    Agreed, but how many times does one have to be singularly, strategically decisive before you become vital?

    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
    As a retired SgtMaj at the Institute once put it, "America doesn't need a Marine Corps, America wants a Marine Corps." I'd ask you to expound on your statements, but I think we've hijacked this thread enough.
    I would consider this more of an indictment on a me-centered "I want what I want, forget what I need generation" and an astute sociological compliment to the Corps than a slam on our viability. Sounds like the SMaj knew his audience... I agree on the digression and our need to come back to center but as First Digressor (er?) I would be more than willing to elaborate some of my opinions for you offline. I think I can back this one up historically and would welcome getting slapped down if I can't... I have to confess many of my opinions re: this subject center on not what happened, but what almost happened or the "near misses" so at the end of the day your conversion to my point of view would be largely dependent on accepting certain (factually based) hypotheticals and us running from there...
    Last edited by Ender; 11-22-2007 at 08:43 AM. Reason: Typo

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