Waterboarding, Just water boarding

[Abu Buckwheat]

Personal value judgment. Let the U.S. Congress (a) define waterboarding (b) determine if it is illegal under international and/or U.S. law and (c) act accordingly.

Actually, I live in the Mid East off and on, and speak Arabic. Having mingled with Arabs from all walks of life, waterboarding, Abu Ghraib, etc. is only an issue among Western liberals. Arabs think of us a far too genteel and naive in many aspects. The greatest grievance among many Arabs towards my dear Uncle Sam is that they cannot get visas to America.

Shivan, You must live in a different Middle East than I because I get Abu Ghraieb, Fallujah, Qana, and 9/11 conspiracy theories thrown in my face almost daily. I speak Arabic & in live in a ME capitol ... also served in Iraq. There is nothing about those issues that can't turn a peaceful group of guys smoking the Shisha into a pretty worked up crowd. They especially believe in the 9/11 Jewish conspiracy and when I tell them I saw the attacks with my own eyes and that Jews, Moslems and Christians were killed in the hundreds only then do they soften up and regret what they say. They think the Bush neo-conservatism is really a neo-Crusader trick of great shrewdness. They can't believe its just incompetence.

There is nothing Western liberal-inspired about the anger and resentment here in the ME. Its genuine and deep seated ... oh and they are angry about not being able to get Visas too... especially the Iraqis that worked for us.

As for Gunaratuna's estimate of 7 million armed and angry Moslems in the Jihad ... it not a good estimate. Its 1 billion angry innocent Moslems who have a political gripe about our policies and approx 21,000 amed & in the Jihad globally (incls Taliban, AQI, Chechens, AQ global & franchises, ASG and other mini-Jihads). Maybe 100,000 active supporters. Thats my guess.

OK back on topic ... My wife says - "A little bit of torture is like a little bit pregnant ... in the end you're still knocked up."

[Shivan]

Abu Buckwheat -- Careless writing on my part by adding Abu Ghraib. I was focusing on the issue of waterboarding, hence the following sentence "Arabs think of us a far too genteel and naive in many aspects." The last line is facetious, as you may have figured: "The greatest grievance among many Arabs towards my dear Uncle Sam is that they cannot get visas to America."

Yes, I know how upsetting the issue of Abu Ghraib is, and the conspiracy theories percolating in the region. Arabs would not be Arabs w/o conspiracy theories, and which has a long history in their social traditions. A lot of anger is whipped up though, like the cartoon controversy.

[Rex Brynen]

AArabs would not be Arabs w/o conspiracy theories

Yes, its a good thing we have no equivalent in the west

Poll: U.S. hiding knowledge of aliens

June 15, 1997
Web posted at: 12:00 p.m. EDT
(CNN) -- Nearly 50 years since an alleged UFO was sighted at Roswell, New Mexico, a new CNN/Time poll released Sunday shows that 80 percent of Americans think the government is hiding knowledge of the existence of extraterrestrial life forms.

...

Sixty-four percent of the respondents said that aliens have contacted humans, half said they've abducted humans, and 37 percent said they have contacted the U.S. government. The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

[ProfessorB]

Congress certainly could "legislate" waterboarding away under its Article I powers to "make all laws" concerning the armed forces, though this begs two issues:

1. Only part of the Intelligence Community constitutes the armed forces for purposes of Article I jurisdiction, so this would only get at part of the problem; and

2. The administration has already reserved to itself the right to ignore acts of Congress under the presumptive authority granted under Article II's commander-in-chief clause.

My assumption is that the panoply of Bush-era executive privileges will be brought up for strenuous review by the Republican Party in Congress once a Democrat is elected president -- they're not going to be at all happy with the idea of President H. Clinton having Bush/Cheney powers.

[goesh]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21698732/

"Senate confirms Mukasey as attorney general
Bush nominee wins backing for post despite waterboarding flap"

Doesn't this sort of remind the reader of the ol' steroid game pro athletes play? You know, a performance enhancing agent gets banned, Chemists and hustlers develop an alternative not on the list, not able to be readily detected, athletes then perfrom wonderous feats of strength and agility, records get broken, kudos and perks flow their way, then they fall into disgrace once the evil chemical is identified and banned by the agencies in charge of monitoring and regulating such affairs. I had thought to title this post " The Tao of Sensory Deprivation Tanks, or, The Ying and Yang of Torture" but I haven't yet even begun to understand the Islamic mind let alone the Asian mind, so let's leave sleeping dogs alone in their slumber.

Can you imagine how many hearings and how much time it would take our august govermental bodies to come to grips with the use of sensory deprivation tanks? How much research? How many hearings? How many tax dollars for paid consultants - then the same round of inquiry and hearings applied to allies who use such techniques? there's no physical pain involved with this technique, sort of like solitary confinement in that respect or for that matter much like the general idea of isolating certain people from society to begin with. When good will, reason, brotherly love, hugs, empathy, rationality and the Golden Rule of Law fails us in the effort to prevent the loss of our lives and property, we at least can still hold the high moral ground and have lots of solemn hearings and testimony - they can't take that from us.