Comparing religions

[invictus0972]

BTW, talking about killers of innocent people, remember those U.S. sanctions that killed 500,000 Iraqi kids and for which Albright said it was "worthed"!? Do you really believe your "side" don't kill innocent people? "Funny" how killed Americans are always "innocent people" and all others living on open range and when they died it's they own fault.

Talking about "muslims allies"... There are Muslims and "muslims" and they have they own free will and souls. Let's just hope they will not end up like many of your allies you used and betray on the end. Or maybe even worst then that... Like this latest:

US accused of killing Iraq allies
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7096755.stm

You make some valid points, Sarajevo. However, the two claims you make above are not accurate. Sanctions were a result of Hussein not abiding by the UN mandates he agreed to at the end of Operation Desert Storm. This is true of any country that may be suffering under the burden of sanctions. So, in actuality, it was Hussein who caused his people to suffer. Also, it is true that American military actions have killed innocents; however, it is a mistake to equivocate terrorist actions, which intentionally kill innocents, with U.S. actions that unintentionally kill innocents. I don't think you have necessarily done this in your posts, but your comments triggered these thoughts in my mind. Anyway, there have been instances where the U.S., as a state decision, has targeted innocents for killing, but this is another lively discussion altogether. In those instances, your charge is much more valid, but it has been years since this has occurred. Remember that I am only referring to state sanctioned actions, not the actions of people who commit crimes. The point is that in modern days there are never any U.S. military operations in which the U.S. intentionally targets innocents. Intention is a key point here. Of course this discussion revolves around the discussion of the definition of terrorism, a frustrating and difficult discussion.

Also, it is not useful to refer to allies "betrayed" when discussing international relations issues. These are moral terms that do not apply in the conduct of international relations. The only thing that matters in international relations is to secure the interests of the state (raison d' etat), and the moral imperatives that apply to individuals are not extended to the actions of the state. This is the nature of international relations, and it does not matter whether a country is Islamic or Western. Every state operates toward securing its own interest. So, allies come and go depending on their usefulness in any given circumstance. Has not the United States been used and discarded by other countries? YES! It is just the way things are, and to say the United States is singularly bad for doing what every other country does is really quite ridiculous and disingenuous. In order to have a real discussion on U.S. foreign policies, it would be much better to do away with the moral invectives and the emotions because they just don't matter.

[Sarajevo071]

I am sorry but to agree that ONLY Saddam is in fault over sanctions I can not. U.S. government have they blame there too. Big time. Book titled "The Fire This Time: US Crimes in the Gulf" by Ramsey Clark it's amazing read on this subject.

I understand your references on state sanction killings and your attempt to distance your self (U.S.) from killings that I was referring too, but when we talk about those "others" who killing your civilians, they are also NOT state sanctioned but rather singular soldiers in broad war. Instead to fly planes and drop 1,000 lb bombs on everyone under them, they going heads one with they bodies or cars.

So, my point, we are here talking about individuals who are committing atrocities and states/leaders that do not punishing them. In grand scale of life, murder is murder. Simple. At least for me.

I do agree with you about selfish state/nation interests and there is nothing new or strange there. My answer was not emotional but exactly on target and with same irony, bias and underlying insults I am reading from some people here (when I am in case). Also, I never said that "the United States is singularly bad" for doing this or that. You are right. Everyone else is doing same for them self.

That's why I think politics and governments (majority of them) sucks big time.

[Sarajevo071]

What does the Qur'an say about Christians?


In the Qur'an, Christians are often referred to as among the "People of the Book," i.e. people who have received and believed in previous revelation from God's prophets. There are verses that highlight the commonalities between Christians and Muslims, and other verses that warn Christians against sliding towards polytheism in their worship of Jesus Christ.

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

"Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.

So if they dispute with you (Muhammad SAW) say: "I have submitted myself to Allah (in Islam), and (so have) those who follow me.

"And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans)

"Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allah in Islam)?" If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah is All-Seer of (His) slaves (3:19-20).

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians):

Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away,say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." (3:64).

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).

"O you who believe! Be helpers of God -- as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, 'Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?' Said the disciples, 'We are God's helpers!' Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved.

But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed" (61:14).

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).

"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (9:30-31).

[skiguy]

Good verses, Sarajevo. Thanks.

"Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allah in Islam)?" If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah is All-Seer of (His) slaves (3:19-20).

What are ways that Muslims are commanded/allowed to convey the message?
And is 3:22 the consequences of rejecting Allah? "They are those whose works will bear no fruit in this world and in the Hereafter nor will they have anyone to help." (I notice, unlike what we've been hearing on radio and TV the past few years, there isn't any type of 'if they don't believe, kill them' in this passage.)

To compare with Christianity:
Matthew 28:19
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" (this is what the resurrected Christ commanded His disciples to do. He didn't tell them to force it on anyone)