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Thread: Finding American backs to stab

  1. #1
    Council Member Cannoneer No. 4's Avatar
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    Default Finding American backs to stab

    By William J. Astore
    The world's finest military launches a highly coordinated shock-and-awe attack that shows enormous initial progress. There's talk of the victorious troops being home for Christmas. But the war unexpectedly drags on. As fighting persists into a third, and then a fourth year, voices are heard calling for negotiations, even "peace without victory." Dismissing such peaceniks and critics as defeatists, a conservative and expansionist regime -- led by a figurehead who often resorts to simplistic slogans and his Machiavellian sidekick who is considered the brains behind the throne -- calls for one last surge to victory. Unbeknownst to the people on the home front, however, this duo has already prepared a seductive and self-exculpatory myth in case the surge fails.

    The United States in 2007? No, Wilhelmine Germany in 1917 and 1918, as its military dictators, Field Marshal Paul von Hindenburg and his loyal second, General Erich Ludendorff, pushed Germany toward defeat and revolution in a relentless pursuit of victory in World War I. Having failed with their surge strategy on the Western Front in 1918, they nevertheless succeeded in deploying a stab-in-the-back myth, or Dolchstoßlegende, that shifted blame for defeat from themselves and Rightist politicians to Social Democrats and others allegedly responsible for losing the war by their failure to support the troops at home.

    [snip]Fear of being labeled "the enemy within" is already silently reshaping our politics as even decorated combat veterans like Congressman (and retired Marine Corps colonel) John Murtha are not immune from being smeared for criticizing the President's war. Politicians recognize that, in a campaign, it's well-nigh impossible to overcome charges of weakness and pusillanimity. Senator Hillary Clinton senses that she may be unelectable unless she argues for us to continue to fight the good fight in Iraq, albeit more intelligently. In fact, if you're looking for significant changes in troop levels or strategy there, better hunker in for Inauguration Day 2009 -- and then prepare to wait some more.

    Presented for your consideration.

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    I've always thought that at some late-night, visceral level, even the most hardened Liberal/Leftist/Pinko had fleeting visions of themselves or maybe their children being the star attraction in a beheading video, that extremely remote and off-the-chart probabilities really do nag at them a bit from time to time. It's sort of like the gore from a bad wreck on the highway we can't take our eyes off of as we pass by on our way to grandmother's house for turkey dinner, living as we do in the la-la world where the presumption of privlige is soley based on geographic location at the time of birth. Nope, it's just hard to completely dismiss masked fanatics with their bombs and beheading swords despite the props of equity, justice, brotherly love, globalism, tolerance, sound foreign policy that aren't keeping them fully at bay. It weakens the punch of their rhetoric if nothing esle. I don't know, maybe I should have gone for a Sufi-style poem here.

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    Council Member J Wolfsberger's Avatar
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    Default Look at it this way:

    He's comparing Bush to Paul von Hindenburg. That has to count for some intellectual improvement over comparing Bush to Hitler.
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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Hey John !
    Quote Originally Posted by J Wolfsberger View Post
    He's comparing Bush to Paul von Hindenburg. That has to count for some intellectual improvement over comparing Bush to Hitler.
    If you think that's a comparison, imagine what the Russian Chief of Staff has to say

    Russia not obliged to protect world from U.S.
    I swear that's a 1970's era Hawk battery behind him in that pic. Did we sell them those too

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    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Default Photoshop Arms Deal

    Naw, he just took the pic from a brochure

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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Odom View Post
    Naw, he just took the pic from a brochure
    Sneaky bastards; if he poses in front of a Bradley or Abrams next time, that's it

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    Council Member wm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Wolfsberger View Post
    He's comparing Bush to Paul von Hindenburg. That has to count for some intellectual improvement over comparing Bush to Hitler.
    The latest Doonesbury thread portrays the VP as a dark lord akin to Star Wars' Emperor Palpatine. (Or perhaps he is a Dickensian Ghost of some Christmas past, present, or yet to come.)

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    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wm View Post
    The latest Doonesbury thread portrays the VP as a dark lord akin to Star Wars' Emperor Palpatine. (Or perhaps he is a Dickensian Ghost of some Christmas past, present, or yet to come.)
    I must admit that I, too, live outside the bubble, Lord Cheney

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    Council Member Cannoneer No. 4's Avatar
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    Default They're trying to preemptively inoculate themselves

    . . . against accusations of defeatism and worse should they end up on the wrong side of history.

    Anybody who questions their patriotism is a Nazi. End of discussion.

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    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Odom View Post
    I must admit that I, too, live outside the bubble, Lord Cheney

    Hear hear.

    Doonesbury never interested me before about 2002 - since Iraq started it seems to have reinvigorated Tredeau's satirical mojo and has become one of my favorite reads. His Iraq stuff is powerful.
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
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  11. #11
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    Default Tired of the Rovian Political Mindset

    Quote Originally Posted by Cannoneer No. 4 View Post
    . . . against accusations of defeatism and worse should they end up on the wrong side of history.

    Anybody who questions their patriotism is a Nazi. End of discussion.
    Gawd, can all sides declare a moratorium on two things, at least on SWJ?

    1) Any comparison of any group to nazis that aren't nazis. Come on. Seinfeld can keep the "Soup Nazi", but that's about it.

    2) Non support/criticism of war = not a patriot. I joined this army to defend their ability to question authority. You don't have to like it, but you can tolerate respectful dissent.

    And I'm adding a #3 as I type - using the wingbat right (Malkin/Coulteites) or wingbat left (Moveon/Kos) to characterize everyone of a given political persuasion. Just because one lefty equates Bush to Nazis doesn't mean all those left of center to, or that some of them don't have valid points to make that are less emotionally loaded. Same for when the wingbat right equates all those who thought maybe we should be doing a different COA in Iraq are all "defeatists".

    <sigh>
    Last edited by Cavguy; 11-16-2007 at 01:24 PM.
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
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    I'm with you, cavguy.

  13. #13
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    I've come to the conclusion the right/conservative/fascist and left/liberal/pinko exist as a real group only in the non-thinking polarized few. Whether the topic is environmentalism or corporate subsidies few people think that there are easy answers or that there is a "one answer fits all" approach. Those that do think in concrete terms and that everything is black and white and color is evil are few but vocal. The Internet has given rise to the equivalent of two loud mouthed six year olds reasoning with volume and listening with deafness.

    The debate on the war in Iraq between liberals and conservatives has been disingenuous at best and outright political theater at its worst. A few people are making a lot of money. The reasons for attacking Iraq are terribly inadequate. Continuation of the war is foregone conclusion whether it is true or not.

    The same supporters of the war equate non-support of the war to anti-patriotism and hating the troops. The same supporters of the war who took a long time to up armor humvee's (sic) and built the equivalent of the largest fire-base on the planet in downtown Baghdad. The same supporters of the war willing to field an all volunteer force except for their children. Oops. Never mind the stop loss, forced return from IRR, sending 50 year olds back based on service 30 years ago, and other methods of a back door conscription

    To their detriment those who oppose the war show almost a childish detachment to reality. Fighting over reasons of why a war began is like arguing over why you pissed your pants. It's to late to do anything about it but you should worry about cleaning it up. There is no metric for what withdrawal would cost or mean in world wide support. Ignoring the obvious conflict we are enjoined is creates a credibility gap and arguing over the past instead of the future is a painful lesson in maturity.

    Intellectual debate is a stimulating exercise in political posturing that occurs while those under arms are motivated by hostile terrain and the engaging chatter of enemy weapons fire. Henceforth, I will forever ignore a politician or pundit who leads with or primarily uses the reasons of starting the Iraq war as a platform, or non-support of the Iraq war as bludgeon of patriotism.
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    Council Member wm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cavguy View Post
    Gawd, can all sides declare a moratorium on two things, at least on SWJ?

    1) Any comparison of any group to nazis that aren't nazis. Come on. Seinfeld can keep the "Soup Nazi", but that's about it.

    2) Non support/criticism of war = not a patriot. I joined this army to defend their ability to question authority. You don't have to like it, but you can tolerate respectful dissent.

    And I'm adding a #3 as I type - using the wingbat right (Malkin/Coulteites) or wingbat left (Moveon/Kos) to characterize everyone of a given political persuasion. Just because one lefty equates Bush to Nazis doesn't mean all those left of center to, or that some of them don't have valid points to make that are less emotionally loaded. Same for when the wingbat right equates all those who thought maybe we should be doing a different COA in Iraq are all "defeatists".

    <sigh>
    To sum up, and paraphrase the words of Oddball, your avatar, let's just stop " with the negative waves, Moriarity."

  15. #15
    Council Member Cannoneer No. 4's Avatar
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    Default The Stab That Failed

    The congressional Democrats' surge-against-the-surge -- a case study in political futility. by Noemie Emery

    Seldom before in the annals of governance have so many politicians fought so long and so hard to completely screw up a winning strategy being waged on their country's behalf. Some cruelly define this as treacherous conduct, but this is imprecise and unkind. They tried, it is true, to do serious damage, but were compromised in the event by their chronic incompetence

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    I'm not sure I find "stab" a very useful way of characterizing the debate (regardless of one's views on US deployment in Iraq).

  17. #17
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Brynen View Post
    I'm not sure I find "stab" a very useful way of characterizing the debate (regardless of one's views on US deployment in Iraq).
    Agreed but then again it's the Weekly (No) Standard

  18. #18
    Council Member Cannoneer No. 4's Avatar
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    Default How 'bout "undermine?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Brynen View Post
    I'm not sure I find "stab" a very useful way of characterizing the debate (regardless of one's views on US deployment in Iraq).
    Is that more useful for you?

  19. #19
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Good Point, Rex !

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Brynen View Post
    I'm not sure I find "stab" a very useful way of characterizing the debate (regardless of one's views on US deployment in Iraq).
    How 'bout "Stone Age" ?

    The Weekly Standard dated 12 March 2007

    When our tale opens, it is the last month of 2006, Democrats have just scored a blowout in Congress, Iraq is in shambles, and the country is calling for Bush to change course. He does. But he changes course in the other direction, radically revising his Iraq strategy, adopting aggressive new rules of engagement, and sending in 30,000 more troops. Even before the plan was announced to the public on January 10, 2007, Democrats launched their assault. Senator Christopher Dodd declared the plan useless: "A 'surge' of American troops will do nothing."
    Glad I didn't have a paid subscription to this 'breaking news'.

  20. #20
    Council Member Cannoneer No. 4's Avatar
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    Default 12/03/2007, Volume 013, Issue 12

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    How 'bout "Stone Age" ?

    The Weekly Standard dated 12 March 2007
    December 3, 2007

    Indirect refutation seeking to question the validity of some aspect of the allegations or the source of the information to challenge its credibility works with some target audiences, Stan. Works better when you get the date right.

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