Capture, Detain and COIN: merged thread

[jmm99]

I've looked at some data re: Vietnam detentions in connection with Pacification in general and the Phoenix Program in particular; but IIRC (articles are on home computer) most were summaries of other databases. I also was looking at them from the legal standpoint, not re: demographics.

I'll take a look tonite and see what if any of the articles would be useful, either for data they present or to sources of original data that might be online. If I'm reading right, you would perfer online sources cuz hardcopies are hard to come by in mountain goat country,

I expect there will be others here who have at least looked at detention in the context of the Malay Emergency, Northern Ireland, French Algeria and French Indochina.

My interest in detention is primarily legal - see this thread, Crimes, War Crimes and the War on Terror.

Regards

Mike

[jmm99]

This chart is from Tal Tovy, The Theoretical Aspect of Targeted Killings: The Phoenix Program as a Case Study (2009; .pdf link at bottom of abstract), summarizing neutralization of VCI (Viet Cong Infrastructure):

Phoenix Stats 1968-1972.jpg

The footnotes show 1972 as a partial year; and Moyer's book as the source for the chart:

66 Until July 1972, when the Phoenix Program ended as part of the process of evacuation of the American forces from South Vietnam.

67 Source: Mark Moyer, Phoenix and the Birds of Prey – The CIA's Secret Campaign to Destroy the Viet Cong, p. 236.

There are a number of online articles that get into Vietnam War detentions arising from Pacification in general and Phoenix in particular; but those tend to be more qualitative than quantitative.

I'll stop now and you can tell us what type of historical data would be useful.

Regards

Mike

[two7sclash]

Mike - this type of info is useful. It doesn't have to be super sophisticated. This chart told what I needed to know - what type of actors were detained (VCI) and how many were detained. This is a good sample of data for the Vietnam Conflict. Thank you for your help.

Jack

[jmm99]

Hey Jack

BG (ARVN) Tran Dinh Tho, Pacification (link to .pdf) discusses the overall Pacification programs from the South Vietnamese viewpoint.

Compare his figures for VC "ralliers" with VCI "deserters" in the Phoenix post above.

Pacification Stats 1963-1973.jpg

E.g., 47K ralliers in 1969 in the overall Pacification program vs only 4.8K VCI "deserters" included in Phoenix. And, the average annual ralliers work out to about 15K - about 2 military cadres and troops to 1 political cadres and troops. So, these various data sources must be handled with some care.

I'll take a look at a few more.

Regards

Mike

[davidbfpo]

jack,

I am interested in the Vietnam Conflict (both under French and U.S. prosecution), Malay Emergency, Northern Ireland, French Algeria.

I am sure somewhere there are published official figures for detention in Northern Ireland. It maybe difficult to separate terror-related from "ordinary decent crime", except when there was internment. A starting point is:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetriusand http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/index.html

Figures for Kenya maybe easier to get than Malaya IMHO as there was a book a few years ago on the mistreatment in the internment camps, written by an American and the title eludes me.