Six Kilo class submarines in the Vietnamese navy will alter the equation rather a lot, especially if they can make cooperative arrangements with us. That is a lot of SSKs. The Royal Navy only has 7 SSNs. A lot will depend on the quality of the crews and how much time they have to work up the boats. By the way, does anybody know who is going to be helping them with the training?Originally Posted by Dayuhan
I think that purchase makes it clear that the Vietnamese are concerned about Red China's intentions and they are not inclined to fool around too much.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
Dayuhan:
Bill Moore said this.
"To be clear I don't think anyone is itching for a fight, but I do think the brinksmanship games being played out in the South China Sea can lead us into an undesired fight."
You responded with this.
"Only if we let it. Our choice."
Who comprises "Our"?
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
If China is not an existential threat to anyone else then why is every other country trying to counter it?
Vietnam is indeed looking after her interest as every other country of the region - to prevent themselves from being gobbled up. And Vietnam has a history of Chinese imperialism attempting to tuck Vietnam in as a part of the Han Empire. Therefore, they know best what China and Hans are capable of.
To look after her interest she is taking US help and US is not too queasy or choosy about giving that help since that also ensures that her aims are fulfilled.
If any country is squealing, it is China. I am sure the squeals have been regularly seen in the public domain!
Last edited by Ray; 05-07-2012 at 04:05 AM.
Posted by Dayuhan,
The way you phrased it is an exaggeration, what Ray wrote (as you noted) is:Of course the nations in the region are playing the big powers off against each other, and of course the balance of that game changes according to the interests of the moment. To suggest that they are running under the skirts of the US in squealing panic is a huge exaggerstion.
Posted by Ray
Bob's World pretty much said the same when he wrote,And like it or not, all are entering into the warm embrace of the US since they are aware that the US has no hegemonic pursuits and is merely ensuring her supremacy, which none bothers so long as they are not threatened by an all gobbling monster of a nation in the neighbourhood i.e. China!
I don't agree with all the historical comparisons, the China of today isn't the China of even 30 years ago, much less 300 years ago. The world has also changed, so the context that shapes their decisions (and all others) has also changed.US influence rises on the tide of Chinese power.
In many ways we're on new ground (or waters), and it is dangerously misleading to assume these incidents don't have new meaning in today's world. China's actions, more than any others that I can currently discern, have prompted a regional arms race. Maybe that is good for those who produce the arms, and maybe the arms race will result in more stability rather than less. If you need to deal with a state that has a credible military, then diplomacy usually becomes more appealing.
I don't have a crystal ball, but the future will not solely be determined by U.S. or China policy, a lot of other nations have a vote.
Last edited by Bill Moore; 05-07-2012 at 05:36 AM.
In a hurry, but...
India to help train Vietnam in submarine operations
http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...ietnamese-navy
What help has Vietnam asked for or received from the US?
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”
H.L. Mencken
Insightful interviews
http://english.vietnamnet.vn/en/spec...-diplomat.html
Much more at the link.There are three stories in the East Sea which are all important.
The first: Paracel Islands belong to Vietnam. Vietnamese were present there for many years but the archipelago is no longer in our hands.
The second: we were also present on the Spratly Islands for a long time but in 1988, China occupied some islands in this archipelago.
The third: the continental shelf and the exclusive economic zone of Vietnam are defined under the international law, especially the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea 1982 (UNCLOS), which were signed by both Vietnam and China. But China drafts the so-called U-shaped line in the East Sea, which encroaches the territorial waters of other countries.
Everything that is related to sovereignty is all important.
http://english.vietnamnet.vn/en/spec...at-s-eyes.html
Much more of importance in the interview, but I couldn't pass quoting this passageThirdly, many powerful countries focus on this region, including the US, China, Japan, Russia and India. When big countries group up in this region, it becomes significant. That’s geopolitics.
Regards to geo-economics, this is the crossroad of international transport routes, through Malacca strait. In the current situation, materials and energy have become very important.
Now people emphasize the return of the US but actually, America has never left this region. It is not by chance that the US has conducted three wars here: the Pacific War, the Korean War and the Vietnam War.
so trueI’ve just talked with American Ambassador to Vietnam David Shear. When I asked him about the difference between Asian and Western people, he said that instead of difference in lifestyle and thought, there are still common things very deep inside for the two to talk about. He added that if the two sides want to understand each other and try to do that, they would surely understand. Do you agree?
Simply, the American like Gin, the British like Whisky, the French like Cognac while the Vietnamese like rice wine.
They are different but they are all alcohol and everyone likes drinking alcohol.
The common value is general but the character is different.
Last edited by Bill Moore; 05-07-2012 at 07:10 AM.
The US Vietnam naval exercise produced caution on China.What help has Vietnam asked for or received from the US?
If that is not help, what is?
A war?
India is sending a naval goodwill mission of four destroyers to visit friendly nations in SCS.
http://news.in.msn.com/national/arti...ntid=250005924
Indicates much without being said!
Last edited by Ray; 05-07-2012 at 07:27 AM.
That says a lot, does it?Now people emphasize the return of the US but actually, America has never left this region. It is not by chance that the US has conducted three wars here: the Pacific War, the Korean War and the Vietnam War.
And it is no longer the slogan - Dollar Imperialism.
That also says a lot!
Absolutely on the ball!Quote:
I’ve just talked with American Ambassador to Vietnam David Shear. When I asked him about the difference between Asian and Western people, he said that instead of difference in lifestyle and thought, there are still common things very deep inside for the two to talk about. He added that if the two sides want to understand each other and try to do that, they would surely understand. Do you agree?
Simply, the American like Gin, the British like Whisky, the French like Cognac while the Vietnamese like rice wine.
They are different but they are all alcohol and everyone likes drinking alcohol.
The common value is general but the character is different.
Freedom and Territorial Integrity and Sovereignty is the same for all!
Bullies and expansionists have to be kept at bay!
In storm weather - Ukku ukku - any port will do! Nothing wrong in siding with the US. They are not lepers in geopolitics of today, or are they? Let the Chinese fans answer that.
The Chinese fans, supporters, agents and converts can spew any pious platitudes and homilies what they want in the true Chinese style of piety, but survival has a different language that can see through the pious chicanery and hegemonic desires!
The situation can be summed up with what Patrick Henry had said - "Give me Liberty, or Give me Death!"
And what the Sikhs would cry -Wah Guru de Khalsa, Wah Guru de Fateh!
Last edited by Ray; 05-07-2012 at 07:42 AM.
make courtesy our way of life
Speaking of the Merlion City, from a couple months ago:
Singapore warns US against anti-China election rhetoric - BBC - Feb 9, 2012.Singapore's Foreign Minister K Shanmugam has warned the United States against anti-China rhetoric:
[...]
There is also a tendency, he added, in the media, to portray politics in ''win-lose sporting terms'' and the US engagement in Asia ''as a means to contain China''.
''Such rhetoric is a mistake on many levels,'' he said. ''The world and Asia are big enough to accommodate a rising China and a reinvigorated US.''
Not sure what he's worried about here, as the dialogue is generously populated with China sympathisers, camp followers and those who paint China as pure as the driven snow. More to the point, it's probably a given that no commenter on SWC, in attempting to put forth an argument, would wittingly stoop to a continuous loop of goalpost-shifting nincompoopery and specious exaggeration, periodically laced with vapid expressions of soft bigotry and overly-biased ignorance.
I stand corrected.
Interesting that Shanmugan and his Chinese head allows two US naval warship to berth permanently in Singapore!
Nice adjectives, adverbs and whole lot of English grammar thrown in to say a simple point!
Good to see you angry and not with smart innuendos for a change.
Thank Heavens you are now talking turkey!
Learn to take the thick with the thin.
No goal post have been shifted. The goalpost are where they are. Hallucination or effect of depressants may make one feel so!
Han cultural supremacy has been seen through.
Manchus may have succumbed but not all are Manchus, what ho?
Ignorance?
Speaking to yourself?
The facts are on the table.
No peripheral state will accept Chinese hegemony on fake maps or show of muscle!
Is that too hard to understand?
Last edited by Ray; 05-07-2012 at 08:33 AM.
strange bedfellows
Is this of the same level of interest indicated by China's status as India's largest trading partner or of a different sort, given that Singapore is predominantly, well...you know...Chinese?
India and China set $100bn trade target by 2015. - BBC - December 16, 2010.
Remember how China covers selling weapons to rogue regime as Mugabwe and Sudan?
China 'NEVER interferes with the internal politics of a country'.
Indeed, even if they kill their own with Chinese weapons and aircraft!!
Ever so pious!
Trade will continue.
But thwarting hegemony is another issue!
Have you not read how China is furious that India is arming itself to include adding two division on the border, apart from US 155mm Light Howitzers?
Last edited by Ray; 05-07-2012 at 08:41 AM.
the green-eyed monster
Well said, Ray. Your swelling rhetorical priapism can only be admired by those less well-endowed.
Thank you.
You are ever so magnanimous in your pious offerings!
Left handed compliments in English and speaking from both sides of the mouth in American!
Nonetheless, thanks!
the left hand of darkness
You're welcome. A toast to your continuing efforts to plumb the depths of integrity whilst scaling the heights of incoherence.
Now that is interesting. It raises the question of how good the Indian Navy submarine service is. Ray, do you know?
I read something last year of Special Forces doing some training but I couldn't find the reference. There is the continuing series of USN port visits. Other than that, I don't know.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
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