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Thread: China's Emergence as a Superpower (till 2014)

  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    That puts paid to China being a peaceful nation and carrying out legitimate activities.

    And to the vehement protestations that China is no threat to Philippines!!!!!!
    I didn't realize that news readers made policy in China. Muist be a strange place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    I wonder what new 'twist' the Chinese supporters will give.
    I wouldn't know, find one and ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Dayuhan, you must be a very fine dancer. You buy six subs at once, you are in a mighty big hurry to get serious naval power. Period. Given the constraints of lead time for construction, building bases, training and working up crews and all the other things that go with it, 2009 was yesterday. That yesterday was before the current round of incidents, but after the incidents before that.

    Besides, racing to buy all those subs starting just a very few years ago might be viewed as prescient.
    You don't actually know that they were racing, or in a big hurry. They could easily have been discussing that purchase for a decade, and delaying it until it seemed affordable: e.g. until a period of consistent high economic growth. You're making assumptions based on your own picture of the situation.

    Look here:

    http://www.defence.gov.au/dio/documents/DET_10.pdf

    Scroll to page 8, and you'll see that Vietnamese military spending actually decreased during the period in question: in absolute terms, as a % of GDP, and as a % of government spending.

    Overall, the data in the charts on that page doesn't present much of an argument for a SE Asian arms race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entropy View Post
    Do we have a major interest there? It seems to me the SCS is a tertiary concern for the US.
    It would be a primary concern for anyone who wants to argue that the US needs to raise military spending, and certainly there are people with a strong vested interest in making that argument.

    There's also a strong emotional component here that has nothing to do with any definable interest. It's difficult for some Americans to accept that the US could have a peer competitor in any part of the world, or that the US may not have absolute military superiority at all places at all times. However, given the economic realities, I'd say that's something we just need to learn to deal with: we've survived peer competition before, no reason we can't do it again. Insisting that the US must remain as the world's sole superpower regardless of economic capacity strikes me as an unrealistic and self-destructive policy goal.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

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    Default The Buffer Zone

    From DoD, Annual Report to Congress, Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China (2011):

    The First and Second Island Chains. PRC military theorists refer to two “island “chains” along China‟s maritime perimeter. The First Island Chain includes Taiwan and the Ryuku Islands, the Second Island Chain extends from Japan to Guam.
    2011 Two Island Chains.jpg

    The US flag flies over Guam (since the S-A War, a Territory) and over the Northern Marianas (which is a Commonwealth - same as Puerto Rico). The other Micronesian sovereign states: Palau; Federated States of Micronesia (from the Yap, Truk and Ponape districts of the former Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands - TTPI) and Marshall Islands:

    Map of TTPI small.jpg

    are bound to the US and each other for purposes of defense by the Compact of Free Association. For example, in 2008, the Federated States of Micronesia had a higher per-capita enlistment rate than any U.S. state, and had more than five times the national per-capita average of casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan (LINK and LINK).

    The Philippines and the Philippine Sea are the only buffer zone between the territorial claims of China (out to the First Island Chain) and the front yard of the United States. PRC force projection into that buffer zone would not be desirable. In fact, PRC force projection in enforcement of its present territorial claims (out to the First Island Chain) would not be desirable.

    Without either of those force projections, Guam, the Marianas and the western areas of the Federation and Palau are within PRC missile range. Gons, Access Challenges and Implications for Airpower in the Western Pacific (2010, RAND; 266 pages), lays out his case in depth for how the PRC could neutralize (if not defeat) the conventional US forces in the Second Island Chain.

    I don't buy JMA's theory that the US will be a paper tiger, turning tail and leaving the Pacific (to include Alaska and Hawaii) to the Chinese and the Russians. But, US Micronesia will be the canary in the coal mine as to whether JMA's theory has any validity.

    Bottom line: The SCS, the Philippines and the Philippine Sea cannot be a tertiary area for the US - if an "Asian pivot" is to have any credibility.

    No one has an exact crystal ball here - and we haven't even started talking about nuclear strategies.

    BTW: To also make it crystal, I don't believe in US "hegemony" (including Manifest Destiny and the kind of "American Exceptionalism" that goes with that). If I am anything, it is a multipolarist. However, neither my crystal ball nor calculator allows me to predict the pecking order of comprehensive national power amongst China, Russia, India, Europe, Japan, USA and Brazil.

    Regards

    Mike

    PS: Gons' dissertation was reviewed briefly by Bob Haddick, This Week at War: Preparing for the Next Korean War (SWJ Blog Post; December 26, 2011). His BLUF:

    Gons's study shows how difficult it is to project air and naval power against a capable opponent operating from continental bases. It also shows that the Air Force's short-range fighters, conceived during the 1980s for the confined European theater during the Cold War, will struggle to be useful in the Pacific's vast spaces. The Obama administration has pivoted to the Asia-Pacific. The Air Force and Navy need to adapt if they are to effectively support the new strategy.
    HT to David for posting this link a "few pages back" in this thread.
    Last edited by jmm99; 05-10-2012 at 02:00 AM.

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    Posted by Dayuhan,

    Previously to what? Vietnam's submarine order was placed in 2009, negotiations began a year before that. The Gepard class frigates were ordered in 2006. The most capable surface combatants in SEA belong to Singapore; bidding on that contract began in the mid 90s, the order was made in 2000, the ships were delivered from 2004-2008. None of this is really new, and if you look at spending over time you see that spending increases as economies grow. Many countries have been methodically replacing 70s-vintage hardware as they can, but there's little evidence of a sudden surge in the last few years. I'd have to agree with Fuchs on this one, unless someone can show actual spending patterns as evidence to the contrary.
    I provided that information in my response to Fuchs. Also as someone already commented, 5-7 years is the normal procurement cycle for most militaries. China's behavior in the SCS has been becoming increasingly aggressive over the past few years, and China has been investing in its military transformation for some time, so yes there is an arm's race taking place due to geopolitical reasons, not due to a larger economy. In fact, SE Asian nations have been very concerned with the global economic down turn, so the fact that they're continuing to spend instead of cancelling orders is telling. There are many nations that have experienced substantial economic growth that didn't substantially invest more in their military, and as stated previously a country that doesn't have any subs and all the sudden orders six, is an indictation that not all is well in the region.

    Singapore has a modern (albeit small) military, and due to their small size and the perceived potential to be threatened by larger neighbors has always strived to have a power mouse military to discourage potential aggressors. I don't know if Singapore is concerned with China or not, I suspect they're more concerned with over all regional stability.

  4. #504
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    The Philippines and the Philippine Sea are the only buffer zone between the territorial claims of China (out to the First Island Chain) and the front yard of the United States. PRC force projection into that buffer zone would not be desirable. In fact, PRC force projection in enforcement of its present territorial claims (out to the First Island Chain) would not be desirable.
    If we're concerned about oiur front yard, we have to expect the Chinese to be equally concerned with theirs... whether we think they should be or not, they are.

    This really isn't about what we think is desirable or not, it's about what is. Like it or not, the Chinese do have the capacity to project power within the first island chain, and to a lesser extent beyond. That's a reality that we can't change. Our task is to learn to manage the reality of a peer competitor within that small slice of the world's oceans. That doesn't seem impossible to me. I really don't see why we should treat a competitor as an enemy, or why confrontation, containment, and spending more than we can afford on armaments is a necessary or even desirable approach to managing that situation. Does accepting the reality of a peer competitor in the SCS compromise the security of the US Pacific territories?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Moore View Post
    yes there is an arm's race taking place due to geopolitical reasons, not due to a larger economy.
    Look at the actual spending pattern:

    http://www.defence.gov.au/dio/documents/DET_10.pdf

    Charts on page 8.

    What there suggests an arms race?

    Singapore has been the big spender in the region for a long time; in per capita terms they are one of the highest military spenders in the world. That goes back to an acrimonious split with Malaysia and concerns about being stuck between two much largwer predominantly Malay/Muslim states, with whom relations haven't always been smooth. That spending level is in many ways anachronistic (in my utterly irrelevant opinion), but it's their call and that's been their way of doing things, essentially since they came into existence as a State. They can afford it and it's what they want to do.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

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    The question is not whether I understand money or what life is all about. The question is whether the policy of a nation deemed to be openly hostile with an unquenchable lust for expansionist hegemonism is being facilitated by international trade.
    In a world that is reeling with recession and is barely keeping itself afloat, it becomes essential to meet the demands from the cheapest source.

    Further, to ensure that companies stay afloat, it become essential to invest in areas where there is cheap labour so that the profits are high.

    Yes it will assist the nation that has cheap labour and the trade will bolster its economy, but then that risk has to be balanced.


    Do you think that this might be a generalisation or an exaggeration?
    Don’t take my word for it.

    Labeled by researchers as "emphasis on material values" or "egoistic materialism", making money has become a major concern for most of the Chinese. This new pivotal function is expressed by a quasi-obsessional desire for buying apartments, cars, goods, domestic equipment, and fashionable clothes. Along with individuation, showing external signs of wealth has become a social basic requirement. It can be analyzed as a search for status, for social recognition, an ambivalent desire of identification to the new trend and a quest for differentiating oneself socially, which comes up with a new identity issue in changing China.
    In the sixties, a farmer could find a wife if he had a bicycle, a watch and a radio. Today, no woman would do with just such a patrimony and the same farmer would remain a bachelor all his life. The focal value of wealth is expressed in the attitude surveys carried out among workers showing that workers put monetary rewards high on their preference list. What can be observed is a deep shift invalues from the Confucian disdain for commerce and financial success followed by the Maoist suspicion for money as a basic capitalist weapon. Deng's formula "getting rich is glorious" comes perfectly in line with the concern for self-pride. This new worship for money is expressed in a number of ways. For instance, names of newly opened hotels reflect it: "Celestial Money", "Palace of the Eternal Wealth". In the streets, ads for consumer products have replaced political slogans….
    Seeking quick and easy money leads to widespread corruption. Civil servants use their position to extort bribes and the Party as well as the government can heavily punish corrupted members when discovered. It also leads to gambling, smuggling, cheating and counterfeiting, another serious problem that still has to be solved in spite of recent efforts made by the central government.
    http://www.ceibs.edu/ase/Documents/E...orum/faure.htm
    有錢能使鬼推磨
    If you have money you can make the devil push your grind stone.

    That Chinese proverb is being literally followed.


    You seem to be saying that having religion and religious beliefs are two separate things. Aside from that, are you implying that no Chinese have religion or religious beliefs? Is this an accurate depiction, in your opinion? Do you mean that I am personally shovelling in money to Tibet? If money is my supreme happiness, why would I give any to the Tibetans? Let them find their own money. I can barely shovel enough money into my own bank account. Furthermore, I'm personally in favour of independence for both Tibet and Taiwan. Is this realistic? I don't know. Given the current state of the world, somehow I doubt it. When you say any forum, do you literally mean that? If I go to a forum discussing bad seventies movies, will I encounter these things of which you speak that are so difficult to explain to a Chinese?
    Have I said religion and religious beliefs are different?

    Chinese in Mainland China practice religion but it is State controlled. When the State decides how a religion is to be preached and conducted, it is hardly religion. It is only a ritual without real religious values.

    The Vatican cannot decide who is to be the Bishop and how Buddhism is being conducted and snuffed is well known and how Islam in Xinjaing is suppressed and controlled requires no elaboration.

    It is fine to act very magnanimous in a forum to state that you believe that Taiwan and Tibet should be independent, but that is not what the opinion amongst the Chinese is. Forget about Tibet and Taiwan, the newsreader of CCTV was audacious enough to mention that Philippines is an integral part of China. Does indicate the subconscious. Further, no Govt functionary can express independent views publicly in China and that fact is no secret. I will answer this in greater detail in Dayyhan’s post.

    The Chinese are probably surprised at a great many things. Perhaps not least of all at the countries trading with them to whom money, wealth and power are not all.
    If they are surprised, then they do not understand international trade. But I take it that they are not that naïve as you make them out to be.

    Would you describe the values that are important to you? Are these values consonant with the manner in which you address people who disagree with you on this forum?
    Check my answer to Chinese being sold to money making alone as above.

    I am direct in the manner in addressing issues and am not dexterous or devious or adept in cloaking feelings with fancy jugglery of syntax that are neither here nor there and yet, the interpretation is loaded. Check your posts and you will find what I am trying to convey.



    Such as the containment of China. Correct?
    That is the feeling China has, but it is not so.

    It is merely being on guard.

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    Dayuhan

    I didn't realize that news readers made policy in China. Muist be a strange place.
    Very droll!

    It is surprising that you did not know that not only the newsreaders, but none but the highest seat of power in China can make policies.

    Even a powerful person like Bo came a cropper trying to take on the CCP, notwithstanding his legacy of being a revolutionary’s son who was close to Mao!

    Therefore, if a newsreader in a Chinese Govt TV channel can state that Philippines is a part of China, it sure means it was a wink wink to test the waters and also tell the world that China is serious in her intent!

    If it were not so, she would have been in a re-education camp i.e. jail. Greater people have been stuffed in jail for lesser ‘crimes’.


    I wouldn't know, find one and ask.
    Indeed!

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    Backwards.

    I am no economist, but maybe this could answer you post on economy

    The Great Fall of China

    Qi hu nan xia, goes a Chinese proverb: When one rides a tiger, it is difficult to dismount. For the leaders of China’s 1.3 billion people, the import is clear. Stay on the tiger’s back, issue commands, and hope like hell the beast doesn’t turn on you. Over the last quarter-century that approach has served the mandarins of the Communist Party well. China became an economic marvel and staked a claim as the world’s next superpower. Civil liberties, social development, environmental husbandry, and political transparency were subordinate to the imperatives of growth. Increasing complaints about the avarice and gangsterism of government officials could be dismissed as local problems as long as an enlightened elite was thought to be guiding the state with a steady hand. Even when under pressure to reform, China’s leaders could reassure themselves that their grip on power remained secure.

    Not anymore. The Communist Party faces the most serious threat to its authority since the Tiananmen Square uprising of 1989. The case of Bo Xilai alarms China’s leadership precisely because it weakens the impression of strength and competence they have labored so hard to maintain. A tough-on-crime princeling about to be welcomed into the ruling elite is suddenly accused of being corrupt; his wife is implicated in the murder of a British business associate; the family’s fortune, totaling over a hundred million dollars, exposes the wealth high-ranking bureaucrats have amassed at the public’s expense.

    These episodes have revealed to the world—and to a sizable portion of the Chinese people—a culture of greed, violence, and deceit at the highest levels of government. The Communists’ power is not in imminent danger, but their legitimacy is.



    All of which is to say that it’s a mistake to stop doing business with China. Just as it’s a mistake to think this is business as usual.

    ......................


    Investors are starting to act on their words. In March, foreign direct investment into China fell about 6 percent from a year earlier, the fifth straight month of decline. That was the longest streak of monthly declines since 2009, when the financial crisis caused multinationals to slow overseas investment. China doesn’t depend on money from abroad, but it does require the technology and know-how that foreign multinationals bring.

    China and its investors need each other. Ford Motor (F) Chief Executive Officer Alan Mulally has built Chongqing into Ford’s biggest manufacturing center outside of southeastern Michigan. Ford’s latest foray was announced after Bo Xilai was ousted as Chongqing’s Party secretary. In a visit to Bloomberg Businessweek on May 1, Mulally said, “I really enjoyed working with him.” But he made clear that Ford did not rely only on Bo. “We maintain productive relationships with the present leaders and future leaders,” he said. “China is very supportive of the auto industry and of our partnerships.”

    Bo, son of a Mao-era revolutionary hero, had cast himself as a neo-Maoist in opposition to officials pressing a capitalist agenda. In Chongqing—a heartland city of 30 million styling itself as the Chicago of China—he favored a strong government hand and redistribution to the poor. Seen in that light, his downfall should be good for foreign investors.

    But Bo was also that rare character in China who was willing to challenge the status quo by trying new things, a valuable quality in a country suffering from leadership sclerosis. In Chongqing, Bo was reforming the hukou, or household registration system, which controls rural-to-urban migration. He was also experimenting with a property tax, a rarity in China, as a way to raise more revenue from the rich and suppress real estate speculation. His fall could stall those initiatives.

    On a more elemental level, Bo’s fall may have sent a message to other would-be disrupters: Lie low. “The biggest victim of what is happening now is any notion of systematic reform,” says Northwestern University political scientist Victor Shih. “This has sent a very strong signal to all in government that any attempt to carry out systematic changes that harm the interests of other interest groups and factions will result in serious political trouble for the instigator of those changes.”

    The optimists’ case is that the scandal could catalyze change. “The reformers have the upper hand now,” says Alaistair Chan, an economist who covers China with Moody’s Analytics (MCO) in Sydney. “The reformers hope this whole Bo incident shows the downside of having the government too much in the economy.”

    With the downfall of Bo, Wang Yang, now Party secretary of Guangdong, is seen as having a better chance to win one of the top spots in Beijing. His record in China’s southern export powerhouse is encouraging to many. Wang has opted to rely mainly on private businesses, encouraging their growth with tax breaks and by squeezing out lower-margin industries with tighter labor and environmental regulations—what Wang has dubbed “emptying the cage and changing the bird.”

    This isn’t the first time China’s leaders have seemed vulnerable. The government survived the turmoil of the Tiananmen crackdown in 1989, and then made it through the big restructurings of state enterprises in the 1990s without serious problems. “Remember, this is a society that between 1994 and 2001 laid off 60 million workers,” says David Zweig, a professor in the social science division of Hong Kong University of Science and Technology. “They laid off the population of France. And they managed it.” Huge numbers of Chinese are happy members of the ownership society, with cars and title to their homes.

    Still, China’s leaders are making a mistake if they conclude that purges, repression, and state capitalism will work again. When the People’s Liberation Army retook control of Beijing’s Tiananmen Square in June 1989, the protester who blocked a column of tanks was captured by a single Associated Press photographer named Jeff Widener. He had to smuggle the film out of a Beijing hotel in his underwear. China is far less isolated today. Despite Hu’s attempts at “harmonization,” repression cannot hide.

    Democracy and openness are values Western governments and business leaders need to press for, however tactfully. Lacking democratic legitimacy, China’s leaders retain support only by delivering a steadily rising standard of living. Jason Mann, head of China healthcare equity research at Barclays (BCS) in Hong Kong, updates the tiger-riding proverb to surfboard-riding. “As long as you stay in front of the wave,” he says, “it’s fine.” The flip side is that you are in constant danger of being swallowed up. That’s no way to live, or to run a country.

    Read the article at:

    http://www.businessweek.com/articles...-fall-of-china





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    Default And Beijing Weather Besides



    The Global Times special coverage of the SCS Conflict.

    "Aggression", as traditionally defined by both the USSR and PRC, includes military attacks, but also economic and political attacks. Something to keep in mind.

    Regards

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    You don't actually know that they were racing, or in a big hurry. They could easily have been discussing that purchase for a decade, and delaying it until it seemed affordable: e.g. until a period of consistent high economic growth. You're making assumptions based on your own picture of the situation.

    Look here:

    http://www.defence.gov.au/dio/documents/DET_10.pdf

    Scroll to page 8, and you'll see that Vietnamese military spending actually decreased during the period in question: in absolute terms, as a % of GDP, and as a % of government spending.

    Overall, the data in the charts on that page doesn't present much of an argument for a SE Asian arms race.
    I don't care about the data on the charts. And you're right I don't know, in an absolute referred to God for confirmation sense, that the Vietnamese didn't delay their all at once purchase of six SSKs until the finances looked good. Neither do you. What I do know is I read that they devoted the equivalent of their entire, entire 2009 military budget to buying six SSKs all at once. Like I said, they are in big hurry to put some serious sea power into the water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    There's also a strong emotional component here that has nothing to do with any definable interest. It's difficult for some Americans to accept that the US could have a peer competitor in any part of the world, or that the US may not have absolute military superiority at all places at all times. However, given the economic realities, I'd say that's something we just need to learn to deal with: we've survived peer competition before, no reason we can't do it again. Insisting that the US must remain as the world's sole superpower regardless of economic capacity strikes me as an unrealistic and self-destructive policy goal.
    You miss one of the concerns here. Nobody much cares that the Indian Navy just obtained an Akula class sub, nor would I care if they bought 12 Akula class subs. Nor would the Americans care what the Brazilian Navy or the Japanese Navy buys. I read we are offering to sell the Australians SSNs. What concerns me is that a brutally repressive police state that talks tough, claims a big part of the high sea as territorial water and makes a habit of shoving people around is getting a lot of serious military power they didn't have before and that they didn't need to make the country richer and don't need to make it richer still. A peer competitor is one thing, a peer competitor that acts like Red China is another.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Default 99 luftballons

    A fair set of responses overall. As far as your generalised assumptions about the Chinese, I'm no expert but I'm under the impression that there are Chinese people in communities all over the world, not just in China. You often draw no distinction between any of these communities. You seem unable to even consider that Chinese people exist as individuals, perhaps even in China, and may differ from one another in their beliefs and outlooks. On the one hand you state that expats may not even understand countries that they have resided in for a number of years. How is it that you claim such an intimate knowledge of the outlook of over a billion people which you manage to lump into a single category? From news articles and economic reports? Would it be fair or accurate to describe your thinking as a result of four thousand years of the caste system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    It is fine to act very magnanimous in a forum to state that you believe that Taiwan and Tibet should be independent, but that is not what the opinion amongst the Chinese is. Forget about Tibet and Taiwan, the newsreader of CCTV was audacious enough to mention that Philippines is an integral part of China. Does indicate the subconscious. Further, no Govt functionary can express independent views publicly in China and that fact is no secret. I will answer this in greater detail in Dayyhan’s post.
    What does the direct expression of my opinion have to do with either magnanimity or the opinions held in China? You complain that my answers are too often neither here nor there. When I answer directly you choose to subtly disparage. Why bring up Tibet in your previous comment if your follow-up to the response is "forget about Tibet"? What does that say about the subconscious?

    I am direct in the manner in addressing issues and am not dexterous or devious or adept in cloaking feelings with fancy jugglery of syntax that are neither here nor there and yet, the interpretation is loaded. Check your posts and you will find what I am trying to convey.
    Which is interesting given that you somehow manage to evade actually answering the question. You wrote that values are important. So what are the values that you consider important? Are these values consonant with the manner in which you address people who disagree with you on this forum? Since directness is your strong point, do you feel that any of the views you hold of the Chinese are based on either bigotry or ignorance?


    That is the feeling China has, but it is not so.

    It is merely being on guard.
    I'm not sure what you're saying here. Many of your posts directly argue for the containment of China and present evidence that you consider this to be exactly what is happening. Now you seem to be saying that containment is only the feeling of China?
    Last edited by Backwards Observer; 05-10-2012 at 09:22 PM. Reason: words

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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    A peer competitor is one thing, a peer competitor that acts like Red China is another.

    Relax. There's the biggest ocean around between your country and theirs. Keep gun laws relaxed on the West Coast and they won't even wargame an invasion anyway.

    You know, even though the U.S. is allied more or less formally with countries in East Asia, every alliance can be cancelled. Alliances are meant to serve a purpose, not to lead into endurance and pain tolerance tests with no way out.

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    Default Yugot to SSK

    The Vietnamese have only had to date some North Korean made midget submarines, for SOF missions and are decommissioning them:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugo_class_submarine

    It is from this amateur's viewpoint a quantum jump in national naval capability. The new submarine is designed for ASW and anti-surface-ship warfare, and also for general reconnaissance and patrol missions. The vessel has a displacement of 2,300 tons, a maximum depth of 350 meters (1,200 feet), a range of 6,000 miles, and a crew of 57. It is equipped with six 533-mm torpedo tubes and cruise missiles:http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...etnam/navy.htm

    I noted that even if they buy one a year they are very different vessels and so Vietnam will have immense problems IMHO to get the Kilo subs into operational service. Even with the planning and preparation following the order being placed in 2009, with anticipated delivery starting in 2014. From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo_class_submarine

    In ten years time these Vietnamese subs will have an impact and as the Chinese have far more of them they will know how long it took to get them into operational service.
    davidbfpo

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    Territorial rivalry has escalated throughout the seas around China as regional and international navies seek to establish rights of passage against an expanding Chinese presence.

    Chinese and Philippine vessels have been locked in a high seas stand-off since the PLA Navy prevented a Philippine warship from arresting crews of Chinese fishing boats near the Scarborough Shoal on April 8.

    Both countries claim the fish rich shoal as their own and protests by Philippine fishermen over their loss of livelihood have drawn mass support in the south-east Asian country.

    China International Travel Service, the state-owned tourism operator, yesterday suspended ties with the Philippines after organisers announced plans to demonstrate outside Chinese embassy buildings and property today.

    Beijing also issued a travel advisory warning its citizens to keep a low profile. "Avoid going out at all if possible, and if not, to avoid going out alone," it said. "If you come across any demonstrations, leave the area, do not stay to watch."
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ilippines.html
    A scrimmage in a Border Station
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail


    http://i.imgur.com/IPT1uLH.jpg

  15. #515
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    In ten years time these Vietnamese subs will have an impact and as the Chinese have far more of them they will know how long it took to get them into operational service.

    Not sure about the relevance of that "impact".

    Modern SSKs appear to be first and foremost troublemakers that force the opponent to be very careful (and invest in expensive ASW stuff).
    It's rather unlikely that few of them would do much harm if used against a prepared enemy.

    A squadron of highly skilled naval strike fighters could be much more troublesome and much more easy to use (not the least because of subs' radio silence, which really hampers all forms of cooperation and coordination. Another problem is that SSKs with passive sonar mode only may hide well, but they cannot estimate range to target reliably and well.).

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    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    Relax. There's the biggest ocean around between your country and theirs. Keep gun laws relaxed on the West Coast and they won't even wargame an invasion anyway.
    Too late. California already has very restrictive gun laws and that is most of the west coast.

    Now if they were to try and land anywhere on the Gulf Coast they would have a problem.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  17. #517
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    Modern SSKs appear to be first and foremost troublemakers that force the opponent to be very careful (and invest in expensive ASW stuff). It's rather unlikely that few of them would do much harm if used against a prepared enemy.
    You wouldn't invest in the expensive ASW stuff if there wasn't a real possibility that they could hurt you. The British were lucky in the Falklands because the Argentines got the fusing wrong and the sub skipper wasn't all that daring. If Sandy Woodard was the capt of the Argie sub, God knows what would have happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    A squadron of highly skilled naval strike fighters could be much more troublesome and much more easy to use (not the least because of subs' radio silence, which really hampers all forms of cooperation and coordination. Another problem is that SSKs with passive sonar mode only may hide well, but they cannot estimate range to target reliably and well.).
    Speak of the devil, the Vietnamese are also buying Sukhoi strike fighters.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  18. #518
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Another reason the Red Chinese aren't your average would be peer power.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/05...Q4MDUzMDkzMwS2
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  19. #519
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Of course, Communism being a banned political force in Philippines, does leave you ill equipped to comment. Understandable.
    That's actually kind of funny. Communism thrives best when banned. You presumably know that we have the world's longest-running communist insurgency in place. You wouldn't, of course, know that I live in a place widely known as a hotbed of sympathy for that insurgency, but that is the case... not to mention that the performance of communist regimes on a global level is a matter of public record. I don't feel terribly ill-equipped to comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    My State was ruled by the Communists from 1977 without a break till last year. Would you call Communism a failed ideology in my State? It is just that globalisation, liberalisation and the converging of idea with the US that has changed the mindset.
    Communist sub-states can survive and even thrive, though Communist states generally haven't, unless (as China) they abandon much of the communist economic system. They sometimes thrive for unexpected reasons. When I was spending a lot of time in Dubai I often noted the odd symbiosis between arch-capitalist Dubai and communist Kerala. Kerala had the education system to provide the mid-level managers Dubai needed, but Kerala had no jobs for them. So Kerala survived by exporting its educated populace (no only to Dubai of course, but there was a huge concentration there), and Dubai got the workers it wasn't willing to produce on its own (though given its population that wasn't purely a matter of policy.

    The long-term viability of an economy built around export of educated labor is of course open to question, but the symbiosis was a fascinating thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Normally, nations who are not allies, take baby steps to build up relationship. They venture on issues that improve the economy and build infrastructure. They do not jump into military equations or undertake naval exercises. Therefore, it is axiomatic that Vietnam and the US have convergent interests. It also indicates that Vietnam has faith in the US, an erstwhile enemy. To feel that US has no influence on Vietnam and is merely undertaken naval exercises for altruistic reasons would be nave.
    Of course there's no altruism on either side, but that doesn't mean the US is influenceing Vietnam. I don't see one party influencing the other in that relationship, I see two parties cooperating to advance what they see as mutual interests. Vietnam has similar relationships with India and Russia; again I don't really see influence in either direction in those relationships.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    The Asian countries have increased it. Now, why have they done so? They are obsessed with their childhood fantasies of playing toy soldiers or are they obsessed with showing that they have modernised their armed forces, even if their people wallow negatively in social succour.
    Again, if you look at the data there's little evidence of consistent increases in military spending, beyond what you's expect as leaders loosen the purse-strings after a global crisis. The Philippines is increasing, but from a base so low that even after the increase they'll still be the lowest spenders in the region.

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    I don't care about the data
    'Nuff said.

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    What concerns me is that a brutally repressive police state that talks tough, claims a big part of the high sea as territorial water and makes a habit of shoving people around is getting a lot of serious military power they didn't have before and that they didn't need to make the country richer and don't need to make it richer still. A peer competitor is one thing, a peer competitor that acts like Red China is another.
    Ok, fine, be concerned. The fact remains, though, that China exists and has a certain amount of power. We're not going to change that. What's needed is a reasonable, affordable strategy to manage that situation, and fear is a poor basis for building a reasonable, affordable strategy.

    What would you have us - or anyone - do?
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

  20. #520
    Council Member Backwards Observer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Don’t take my word for it.
    有錢能使鬼推磨
    If you have money you can make the devil push your grind stone.

    That Chinese proverb is being literally followed.
    Your original comment was that for the Chinese money is the supreme happiness. Do you feel that a blanket statement about over a billion people is going to be a generalisation? If not, say so directly.

    An attack in Sydney reinforces a Chinese student's perceptions.

    A gang of six teenagers were reported last month to have harassed passengers on a train in Sydney. When they confronted a female passenger, she pointed desperately at two Chinese men sitting opposite her and said "Rob them. They are Asian. They are rich.''

    [...]

    There are Asian students who come from wealthy families. But I also know many Asian students who work here in crappy jobs such as kitchen hands and supermarket shelf-stackers to support their study. Some of my friends don't return home for holidays until graduation to save money, even though most of us Chinese students are precious only children.

    I am from a lower-middle-class family. My parents work in a hospital and spent half their life savings to educate me here. They don't take annual leave and mostly work six days a week to support me. While we are better off than previous generations of our family who came from villages in the countryside, we don't consider ourselves rich.

    We came here to learn, but we live in fear. - SMH - May 11, 2011.
    Last edited by Backwards Observer; 05-11-2012 at 12:58 AM. Reason: quote

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