Platoon Weapons

[Centurion]

I'm thinking a assault rifle caliber weapon, such as a .223 in a IW that's no heavier then four pounds, and of a bullpup design with a carbine length barrel(although it could easily be made longer).
I know magpul is designing a weapon with a 12.5inch barrel, which is basically what i'm talking about here. This would do away with a large amount of weight, but it would not cause to many logistical problems, as it uses ammunition commonly available, yet would still allow for more effectiveness at longer ranges.


Note: Please bear with any mistakes, grammar or otherwise, that I make. I am only 14

[Ken White]

I'm thinking a assault rifle caliber weapon, such as a .223 in a IW that's no heavier then four pounds, and of a bullpup design with a carbine length barrel(although it could easily be made longer).
I know magpul is designing a weapon with a 12.5inch barrel, which is basically what i'm talking about here. This would do away with a large amount of weight, but it would not cause to many logistical problems, as it uses ammunition commonly available, yet would still allow for more effectiveness at longer ranges.

Note: Please bear with any mistakes, grammar or otherwise, that I make. I am only 14

Don't worry about the grammar and mistakes; I'm a lot older than 14 and they put up with me.

Welcome aboard.

I agree with you. Mixing calibers at Platoon level should be held to an absolute minimum. The key to the caliber argument is the theater or location of the fight. There is no 'best' universal caliber given current technology. For the desert, 7.62x51 at a minimum; for urban 5.56 will work; for temperate and jungle, something in between.

Yes, I know that'll give the Loggies and the Accountants heartburn. Good. That's what they're there for...

[William F. Owen]

I'm thinking a assault rifle caliber weapon, such as a .223 in a IW that's no heavier then four pounds, and of a bullpup design with a carbine length barrel(although it could easily be made longer).
I know magpul is designing a weapon with a 12.5inch barrel, which is basically what i'm talking about here. This would do away with a large amount of weight, but it would not cause to many logistical problems, as it uses ammunition commonly available, yet would still allow for more effectiveness at longer ranges.


Note: Please bear with any mistakes, grammar or otherwise, that I make. I am only 14

Well you may be 14 (I suspect you lie and that you are on th force development Staff at Benning! ), but you make a point a few 55 year old Colonels seem to want to ignore!

The Magpul PDW is a very interesting design. If you ever find out more about it, please let me (or us) know. I think it's only a mock-up right now.

...and it may be interesting to note that averagely there are usually about 8-15 different ammunition natures at the platoon level

- If you really can't spell, then you are an Instructor at Warminster.. Ah! I kill me!

[Fuchs]

The Magpuul concept looks interesting and a comparison to the obviously overweight P90 shows tells me that it might even be feasible.
But the weapon isn't even half of the solution.

I've read about a new dedicated cartridge for short barrelled 5.56 weapons being introduce in USSOCOM - that's an important step that I called for for some time.
The weapon would still be compatible with standard cartridges, but could use the more appropriate cartridge as well. That's a better approach than the dedicated PDW cartridges.
The only drawback of the PDR will be that it won't use the muscle memory the soldier gained by practicing with the standard rifle/carbine.

[Distiller]

...

Note: Please bear with any mistakes, grammar or otherwise, that I make. I am only 14

Born on February 29th, heh?

[Centurion]

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The Magpuul concept looks interesting and a comparison to the obviously overweight P90 shows tells me that it might even be feasible.
But the weapon isn't even half of the solution.

I've read about a new dedicated cartridge for short barrelled 5.56 weapons being introduce in USSOCOM - that's an important step that I called for for some time.
The weapon would still be compatible with standard cartridges, but could use the more appropriate cartridge as well. That's a better approach than the dedicated PDW cartridges.
The only drawback of the PDR will be that it won't use the muscle memory the soldier gained by practicing with the standard rifle/carbine.

I was using the Magpul weapon as an example of my point,
which is that any weapon change, should be able to use existing, common cartridges in order to maintain ease of logistics, and if done right, should also be able to be converted to other cartridges somewhat easily, idealy with only replacing magazine well, receiver, and barrel. It should also be somewhat light weight, and have some sort of recoil control mechanism(Preferably something like what is on the Ultimax) or a rate of fire reducer(there an actual name for those?)

To the muscle memory point, that could be changed. In keeping with the bull pup design, it would not be too difficult to change the posistion of the controls so that it takes advantage of that muscle memory, would it?

also, this weapon should be compatible with at least most current accesories(Except for the M203, I simply don't see that working) and for ones that serve a purpose, that is invaluble to the tactical level of war, it should not be difficult to keep other weapons on board, such as the M-4/M-16 to use said Grenade launcher.

This alone, could solve some weight and size issues,
and i'm sure other gear could follow suit.
Like I said in another thread,
instead of spending money on fancy new stuff, spend it on improving existing, or creating new designs.
This could go towards turning a 15 piece of body armour into a 5 pound one, or turning a 20 pound AT launcher into a 10 pound one.


And I did a bit more research on the magpul weapon,
it is completely ambidextrous, 11.5 inch barrel (I was off by an inch ) and has an over all length of about 15 inches.
I hope they go through with this design
This company seems to have so much potential eg. Their PDW, the masada(although that was sold to bushmaster, right?), and the FMG-9 are all remarkable weapons that take existing concepts and make them work, or work better.
I think i'm in love.

[SethB]

Centurion, I've often wondered whether the medical costs of heavy gear don't outweigh the cost of lighter gear.

The Magpul PDW is not yet prototyped. It is a good idea. It does retain a lot of the controls of the M4, but I'm not sure how it does so; it would almost need to use electronics for that.

The P90 is not a marvel of engineering. To say the least.

As for cartridges, TSWG and KAC developed the 6X35 and it is good for 8-10 inch barrels. 6.8 SPC is better in the 10-12.5 inch range and if you want something with more power, that is out there too.

The military could set its goals a little higher, private industry has been very responsive; it could very well be the upside to a nation full of hoplophiles.

[Ken White]

...To the muscle memory point, that could be changed. In keeping with the bull pup design, it would not be too difficult to change the posistion of the controls so that it takes advantage of that muscle memory, would it?

Yep, it can be changed in a couple of days or less.

This alone, could solve some weight and size issues,and i'm sure other gear could follow suit. Like I said in another thread, instead of spending money on fancy new stuff, spend it on improving existing, or creating new designs. This could go towards turning a 15 piece of body armour into a 5 pound one, or turning a 20 pound AT launcher into a 10 pound one.

Totally true, all that's required is the will to do so...

...This company seems to have so much potential eg. Their PDW, the asada(although that was sold to bushmaster, right?), and the FMG-9 are all remarkable weapons that take existing concepts and make them work, or work better.
I think i'm in love.

You have good sense and good taste; apply it to the opposite sex and you'll do well...

[selil]

To fully change reactive instataneous muscle memory "operant conditioning" (instinctual reaction time is about 1/3 of a second) takes on the order of 7000 reptitions. The more complex the movement the more reps required. I have seen variations from a few hundreds reps to tens of thousands but that is usually based on the differing complexities. 7K may seem like a lot but it isn't. 7K is leading toward expertise, and we are only looking for facility. Contrary to popular belief most military weapons operators go into combat with minimal skill. A few leave with great skills. Having read Marshall, Spiller, Grossman and others the mechanical device in a soldiers hand is bascially moot. The most important part of the weapons system is the grey matter attached to the nervous system and properly trained a worn out kalshinkov is just as deadly as a high tech whiz bang shoot around corners toy.

[Ken White]

What he said.

[William F. Owen]

Contrary to popular belief most military weapons operators go into combat with minimal skill. A few leave with great skills. Having read Marshall, Spiller, Grossman and others the mechanical device in a soldiers hand is bascially moot. The most important part of the weapons system is the grey matter attached to the nervous system and properly trained a worn out kalshinkov is just as deadly as a high tech whiz bang shoot around corners toy.

I think Grossman is mostly wrong, but I completely agree with your main point! This is exactly correct!

Any supporting data or notations about the 7k Repetitions? It's fascinating stuff!

[selil]

I'm looking for some non-sports related resources, but there is always wikipedia (though I'm not a fan of it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning (Operant, bad stuff is avoided)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory (Muscle memory, your body learns patterns) and yeppers they actually invoke OODA loops for it.

I ran across the term the first time dealing with teaching drivers education. Then later in dealing with marksmanship. Most recently an article by Kisik Lee on archery (1000 arrows in a day). I'll take a look for it.

[Fuchs]

Martial arts trainers often say that 1,000 repetitions is necessary to learn the basic form and thousands are necessary to become good.
I doubt that dedicated papers on this and small arms exist. Such a study would require too much effort.

The controls are not the issue for muscle memory imho.
To reload under stress and to quickly go into a solid aiming stance (I don't know the better translations) is more critical than trigger, mag release and safety.

I'd prefer a shortened standard weapon with a very rugged sight, minimal maintenance requirements if possible, compatibility to standard cartridges and of course a dedicated cartridge for its short barrel.

[SethB]

Most important, in my mind, is a functional (non-HK, non-Kalashnikov) safety and a bolt hold open.

That said, and to further what Selil mentioned, there is a theory (I apologize for forgetting the name) which holds that a person will react most quickly when they have only a single option. Each choice they gain slows decision making. This is the primary argument against training to perform a number of manipulations to a carbine.

And as for the Masada/ACR, the final version will be both more ambidextrous than an M4, and have the charging handle in a more logical location.

[Ken White]

...I doubt that dedicated papers on this and small arms exist. Such a study would require too much effort.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Gunsite and some others have pretty extensive Libraries and I never cease to be amazed by the things people have studied in depth.

The controls are not the issue for muscle memory imho.To reload under stress and to quickly go into a solid aiming stance (I don't know the better translations) is more critical than trigger, mag release and safety.

Except for reloading under stress, all that's gun magazine and Super Cop SWAT foolishness for competitions; it has very little applicability to military combat.[/QUOTE]

[Stan]

Interesting stuff, Sam !
Our 1980 Korean instructors felt that their nominal 3,000 reps would be sufficient so long as emotional distress (stress) was not introduced into the training. Then in 1994 at a Westpoint, Virginia training facility, our driving and shooting instructors concluded that 7,000 repetitions were the standard, regardless of the levels of stress included in the training. Following a year with Tom in Goma, Zaire actually prepared me for a quite enjoyable vacation (at an anti-terrorism course), while seasoned SEALS stressed themselves to the point of being ordered to play horseshoes at the end of the training day (to slow down and regroup)

I've often felt that bikers are more capable of quickly adapting

Regards, Stan

[selil]

Just as an aside video of the 1000 arrow in a day challenge http://youtube.com/watch?v=RezVD0fAIsY

[Centurion]

The controls are not the issue for muscle memory imho.
To reload under stress and to quickly go into a solid aiming stance (I don't know the better translations) is more critical than trigger, mag release and safety.

I don't know about the solid aiming stance, in a situation were those reflex's are required, the target will probably be close enough so that simply one that will allow us to swing the weapon on target will be enough. I would rather get of three shots that barely hit my target in a stress situation, then not get any off because I waited to long, trying to get into a steady firing position. That's just me though.

And reloading quickly under stress is involved with the mag release

Most important, in my mind, is a functional (non-HK, non-Kalashnikov) safety and a bolt hold open.

I personally, would rather see weapons saftey and handling trained into muscle memory rather then better saftey's on weapons. A SA automatic is just as safe as a DA automatic with extra grip saftey, if handled correctly.
It can't be too hard to drill that into soldiers, i've had it screamed at me every time i've laid my hand on a weapon, loaded or not, for the past two years to not lay my finger on the trigger until ready to fire. I now don't even on cap guns

I agree with the bolt hold open though.

Centurion, I've often wondered whether the medical costs of heavy gear don't outweigh the cost of lighter gear.

I have also wondered that a few times
While I personally prefer heavy metal and wood weapons, to new plastic guns, I have never had to walk a day carrying them. The most i've done is walk a day with a 70 pound pack and my two pound SP ion(Type of paintball gun) in my hands

I would have to ask some real soldiers things about that.

[William F. Owen]

Most important, in my mind, is a functional (non-HK, non-Kalashnikov) safety and a bolt hold open.

Concur. People often ask me my opinion on certain light weapons and I always start with "I like one that works and you/I can use."

That said, and to further what Selil mentioned, there is a theory (I apologize for forgetting the name) which holds that a person will react most quickly when they have only a single option. Each choice they gain slows decision making. This is the primary argument against training to perform a number of manipulations to a carbine.

In Hebrew we call this "Kipodist" - "Hedgehog like" KISS. KISS is everything. It's my guiding light. If you can't explain it to a 19-year-old Bedouin from Beersheva, or Scouser from Liverpool, then it won't work on Operations

And as for the Masada/ACR, the final version will be both more ambidextrous than an M4, and have the charging handle in a more logical location.

Just given this a quick look. Very, very impressive.

[SethB]

Centurion, it isn't that simple.

The safety on the Kalashnikov is located on the right side of the reciever. It almost has to be manipulated with the weak hand. Some people can reach it with the tip of their index finger, but in order to be able to press it down you have to bend the sheet metal tab (also called the safety) away from the reciever. Another option that some have used is a small piece of string, so when you pull your finger down from the reciever to the trigger the string will pull the safety along. I've never used that one, but it came highly reccomended by an old Marine/NYPD cop.

The HK safety is too short for most people to reach it. I have large hands, and I can't do it.

The end result is that people leave the safety off. I've met people who think they are too cool for safeties, and besides the fact that no one is, the biggest danger remains hooking the trigger on your gear, a branch, whatever. If you dig around there is a story about a kid, maybe 11, who took a face full of 00 buck because a SWAT cop snagged the trigger of his Benelli on his kit.

As for the rest of the controls, in most cases they can be dealt with.

I don't know much about fighting, but I do shoot occasionally. Also, I've carried and shot a 1911 long enough (though I now carry a Glock 19) to know that a manual safety is no impediment at all, if it can be easily manipulated. The safety on a 1911 sits directly underneath your thumb, if you use the Modern Technique.