Homosexuality and Military Service (Merged thread)

[DVC]

I can understand that. I don't mean this as an attack on you or an attack on religion, but the reason I can understand it is that I'm fairly frightened of what it would mean for me if the religious right regained control over the US. I think the religious right would outlaw about 75% of my lifestyle, including my sex life--I'm not gay or bi, but I'm not married and I'm not refraining.

But I don't think the argument that without God there can be no equality is really reasonable. A logical premise for equal treatment of all humanity can be arrived at without religious dogma. It's fairly straightforward: it hinges on the acceptance of the idea that circumstance does not define the individual. The idea of rejecting circumstance hinges on the idea of free will (now, some people reject that free will exists, but I don't think it's worthwhile arguing with those people). If one has free will, then circumstance is at most a modifier to one's actions, not the ultimate determinant. And if circumstance does not define an individual, then one must to some extent disregard circumstance when it comes to determining the value of other human beings. If you disregard circumstance, then you accept that all humans are indeed created equal.

And on top of that... I'm not sure it matters where the basis for equality comes from. Let's say you're right and the only reasonable basis for equality is Christian dogma. Well, Christianity has had over two millennia to get equality right, and it's only been in the last two centuries that it's arguably even started on the right path. The previous thousands of years have been filled with countless human horrors perpetrated by people who could show you a strong theological basis for their actions. Again, I'm not attacking Christianity or religion, here--Pol Pot didn't need God to give him a reason to commit atrocities, after all--but the evidence simply doesn't support the idea that having a basis in Christianity, or any other religion, or any lack of religion, matters in the end when it comes to creating societies that treat all humans equally.

Which makes sense, really. I've studied the Bible fairly extensively, and I don't recall Jesus ever saying that his words were intended to create good nations. Just good people.

Sorry, no advocacy of theocracy from me. My biggest objection to the repeal of DADT is that its proponents, including many of our government and military leaders, framed it not so much as a correction to make our limited government silent on a issue that society has determined should be outside of government purview, but really was framed as affirmation of homosexual behavior as normal, natural, and deserving of government support and, in today's environment, probably subsidy, and a affirmation of homosexuality as an identity that is qualitatively equal to race and ethnicity If this is the case because homosexuality is consensual and adult sexual expression, on what grounds can there be legal prohibitions on consentual adult incest (especially if the adults make themselves incapable of bearin children), polygamy, bestiality, prostitution etc. Should we start preparing for a coming DoD Polygamist Heritage month. Probably should have more chairs at that lunch than some of the others.

Probably another analogy (maybe more useful because it's not about sex) would be the issue of overeating/overweight. Should the government enforce height/weight standards on the general population? Probably outside the limits on limited government. Should the government affirm overeating/overweight as normal and natural? Should the only question about fat people in the military be can they do their job, pass the PT test, and fit in their assigned piece of equipment? Should we lift military height weight standards and stop the discharge of fat but talented people in this era of persistent conflict? Why should someone not be allowed to serve their country just because of what they love (on their plate)?

Strongly agree that the new birth through Jesus Christ gives those that take it the potential to be better people, though still far from perfect. I think better people make better nations. The Great Awakening, IMHO, is the father of American exceptionalism and the fact that it produced a large number of true Christians as opposed to church members allowed the U.S. to have a great degree of freedom without anarchy. Individuals ruled themselves based on a desire to live godly lives rather than needing a Leviathan state to keep them in line. I think you only need to compare the American War of Independence with the French Revolution to see this.

Motorfirebox -On a probably much too personal a level though, I'll ask - do you object to Christianity because you doubt its truth or because "walking the talk" might cause you change your lifestyle? Disregard if I'm crossing the line.

Again I enjoy the debate. God bless you and Happy New Year