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    Council Member Rob Thornton's Avatar
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    I agree with you up to a point:

    We will get through this because we have to. But if we don't recognize the problem and make the appropriate changes to our training, MTOEs, and Doctrine, then we will just repeat this mistake agian in the future.
    But the requirements of being all to end all probably guarantee that we will always have a learning curve - the best we might do is adapt faster then the enemy.

    The MTO&Es are not going to change too much - again it goes back to be structured to be the GPF to meet the full spectrum workload outlined as our responsibility - relevant and ready landvpower. The best we might hope for is recognition the full spectrum tasks require full spectrum MTO&Es and an expanded METL for those units which justify maintaining equipment and justifying resources.

    The doctrine I believe will be most helpful is the capstone stuff and its supporting doctrine -ex. the new 3-0 justifies 3-24, etc. It will help leaders recognize and adapt faster to changes in conditions.

    However, reading what SWC member Ken White (who really has been around since Jesus was a Pvt.) has penned here over time has led me to consider my own 22 years differently. Why do we seem to have to constantly relearn things? I'm beginning to think its more a condition then a problem. We're never going to be resourced in time, personnel, equipment, etc. to be prepared for all the military situations which might confront us - nor do I think we've ever been (although there have been time where by virtue of preparing for one thing, we were better prepared for another). As soon as you sink resources into the type of war you fought, or think you fought, or in this case are fighting, but want to conclude, somebody who has been watching you fight and who is concerned you are going to come to their neighborhood decides how to fight you differently enough to where you are not as prepared. Its the nature of an interactive, thinking enemy.

    That is why we do the GPF boogaloo - aka the "Golden Mean". It provides us enough operational and strategic depth (fleshed out by some specialized capabilities like SOF) from which to out adapt our enemies across the spectrum and ROMO. It means the guys and gals who go first are going to incur a harsh damned penalty for playing the "away" game, but it provides us the flexibility to gather the needed resources to prevail.

    I'd say that is also why the best military doctrine and writing are the stuff that helps you to think about war, vs. spelling out what to do. Its not easy, there are no well resourced low hanging fruit to be had for those of us living in GPF land - but through a well organized Institution we can develop leaders who can meet those challenges and better overcome the enduring fog, friction and chance and the differences in conditions we see in each new war we fight (or an evolution of the same war).

    Best Regards, Rob

  2. #2
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Great thread. Couple of thoughts...

    The recent terminology shift from GPF to Multipurpose Forces (MPF) is a good harbinger, I think.

    The Marines could be ahead of the power curve and effectively leverage the old MRU(SOC) into an MEU(COIN); I submit the Army can do the same thing.

    The key is the doctrine. We did not train on COIN or ID for over 30 years because the doctrine lay dormant and we didn't want to play. We have no choice in whether we play or not; we have got to be prepared to play and play the total spectrum of warfare whenever the civilian heirarchy says "Go out and play in the traffic..."

    We will not get to choose whether that traffic is comprised of fleets of 18 wheelers or a dozen baby buggies or whatever in between; we've got to be prepared to f do it all. We owe that much to the Nation, to the troops and even to the institutions themselves. Competence is justification to the max...

    If the Doctrine says that FA Bns should be prepared to function as MPs in the post attack phase (Great idea, BTW) and the Spt Bn has to guard its own compounds and convoys, then we will resource, train for and be able to do that. If it says that Light Infantry will do the foot mobile missions, that the Stryker BCTs will do the Mech AND foot mobile missions and that Armor Bns will be able to provide Armor elements OR wheel vehicle mounted patrols OnO or any of dozens of potential variations on that theme -- then we'll do that.

    If the Doctrine says that Cat I units are authorized 10% overstrength, stabilized, fully resourced and trained and equipped for both primary and alternate (and even supplemental) missions, then we will do that. If that Doctrine says that CAT II units will be at strength, train and be resourced for their primary mission and be capable of receiving an equipment set and training for an alternate (or even also a supplementary) mission in 60 days, then we will do that. Cat II units get 80% fill and 90 days...

    We have the capability to do these things; the troops have the capability to absorb the training and do the tasks. If we spend wisely (not our strong point ) then we can provide an adequate number of Alt and Suppl Msn sets. If the Doctrine says do it, Congress will support it.

    The capability is there, all that's needed is the will in high places...

    Oh. Rob, the answer to your question is one word. We have to relearn things because of -- egos.

    The very sad thing is that our very excessive branch parochiality, our tendency to adopt fads, our rejection of anything our predecessors did, our rejection of any good ideas until they become our ideas causes the effect that as new brooms move in and sweep out the old, they always do the baby - bathwater bit...

    P.S.

    That competence? It also goes a long way toward making bad guys think twice before they mess with you in any venue...

    Lot of advantages to that...

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    Council Member Rob Thornton's Avatar
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    Hey Ken - wondering where you'd been lurking at - thought I'd see if we could get you out

    Do you really think its egos like we normally think of them? Could it be egos and lack of contextual understanding that prevents us from looking deeper and asking things like: - "wonder why they did things like that?" - until like/similiar conditions roll around and then we say - "hey that sort of makes sense."

    I'd not heard about the switch from GPF to MPF. If I took something else like machine guns - and went from GPMG to MPMG would that change the nature and capabilities of that thing, or just the term we used to describe it? The GPMG thing is a bad analogy on my part- machines are not people. Maybe I can answer the broader question I just asked myself - at least take a stab - using the MEU analogy:

    General -would mean - good for everything equally, not so good for any thing in particular (goes with the defend everywhere/not strong anywhere) whereas

    Multi-Purpose might mean on a particular training cycle the unit was tailored for a specific range - multiple purposes/multi-missions, but not all - like when a MEU SOC does its train up.

    This would allow units to be resourced beyond their base MTO&E & train on a range of METL tasks for that cycle - you could have several in the hopper with a different ranges based on the close in Strategic Intel assessment (which is going to be closer to getting it right then one that attempts to go beyond say 6 months to a year) - kind of like standing JTFs.

    I'd qualify this by saying we'll have to acknowledge that when conditions call for a large commitment there will be some risk in that not all might have had recent training in all requisite areas - but there are no perfect answers.

    I like the idea - it sounds feasible and mitigates strategic risk.

    Best, Rob
    Last edited by Rob Thornton; 12-02-2007 at 11:11 PM. Reason: did not like the GPMG analogy

  4. #4
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Not lurking, napping. I'm old...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Thornton View Post
    Hey Ken - wondering where you'd been lurking at - thought I'd see if we could get you out

    Do you really think its egos like we normally think of them? Could it be egos and lack of contextual understanding that prevents us from looking deeper and asking things like: - "wonder why they did things like that?" - until like/similiar conditions roll around and then we say - "hey that sort of makes sense."
    I think egos are the principal driver but your contextual understanding and a strong (and sad) disregard for history contribute. There are other minor contributors as well. The personnel system is itself a major contributor to both the context and ego elements. I've had more than one GO tell me that just as they finally learned the job, they moved.

    That same personnel system -- which needs to be destroyed -- is also responsible for insisting that the new brooms hit the road running and achieve rapid results; it forces the egos into overdrive and does not allow time for contextual scanning.

    I'd not heard about the switch from GPF to MPF....
    I have friends in low places...

    If I took something else like machine guns - and went from GPMG to MPMG would that change the nature and capabilities of that thing, or just the term we used to describe it? Maybe I can answer it myself - at least take a stab - using the MEU analogy:

    General -would mean - good for everything equally, not so good for any thing in particular (goes with the defend everywhere/not strong anywhere) whereas

    Multi-Purpose might mean on a particular training cycle the unit was tailored for a specific range - multiple purposes/multi-missions, but not all - like when a MEU SOC does its train up.
    Works for me. The big plus I see is that at least someone in the Pentazoo is thinking -- that's always a plus.

    This would allow units to be resourced beyond their base MTO&E & train on a range of METL tasks for that cycle - you could have several in the hopper with a different ranges based on the close in Strategic Intel assessment (which is going to be closer to getting it right then one that attempts to go beyond say 6 months to a year) - kind of like standing JTFs.
    True -- and we already have the DMETL today. We also have humungous stocks of predeployed equipment much of which is ancient and will need to be replaced soon. Or does it? A little jiggle of the POM and...

    I'd qualify this by saying we'll have to acknowledge that when conditions call for a large commitment there will be some risk in that not all might have had recent training in all requisite areas - but there are no perfect answers.
    Also true, always a possibility and 'no perfects' is correct. The key IMO, is the Intel -- I'm not nearly as confident about that piece as I am about the capability of units to do multiple missions.

    One thing that I think would help with the Intel on a global basis is to form a MilAssistAdvisoryCmd with a BG / MG Cdr as a counterpart to the SOCom at each Combatant Commander. Staff it with regional FAOs and interface it with the DAO, MEDTs and SOC elms...

    Provided, of course, that we start to realize the value of the FAOs.

    I like the idea - it sounds feasible and mitigates strategic risk.

    Best, Rob
    We'll see what they come up with. At least it's being looked at. I just hope we don't go too far down the "COIN is God" route. We're bad about over correcting...

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    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    I have a question for all. First the importance of Military Police in SASO seems to have been down played. By that I mean instead of tasking other units to do this or creating a multi-purpose Artillery unit, why don't we just increase the size of MP units?

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    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    I have a question for all. First the importance of Military Police in SASO seems to have been down played. By that I mean instead of tasking other units to do this or creating a multi-purpose Artillery unit, why don't we just increase the size of MP units?
    That would be my option #2, build specific SASO or what I call Rear Area, Stability and Reconstruction Brigades/Division. I like that name because RASR (pronounced RAZOR) sounds cooler than SASO (Got to start stroking those egos early).

    I like this idea both as a rear area security element and, once the main battle is over, the elements that transition into the stability and reconstrution units. The Brigade would be built around two MP BNs, one EN BN and a CA/PA BN along with the normal support stuff. Just a thought.
    "I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."

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    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    RAZOR sounds cool, it has MOJO as you say that is important. Like the organization to. MP's can hold it, Engineers can build it, CA can win support for it.

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    Council Member wm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    That would be my option #2, build specific SASO or what I call Rear Area, Stability and Reconstruction Brigades/Division. I like that name because RASR (pronounced RAZOR) sounds cooler than SASO (Got to start stroking those egos early).

    I like this idea both as a rear area security element and, once the main battle is over, the elements that transition into the stability and reconstrution units. The Brigade would be built around two MP BNs, one EN BN and a CA/PA BN along with the normal support stuff. Just a thought.
    This organization sounds a lot like one of the "augmentation" Bdes discussed early on in the transformation process-it was called a Maneuver Enhancement Bde---BOI was going to be maybe one per lower level command and control headquarters (UEx--somewhere between a div and a corps)--all depended on the COCOM's RFF and strategic tailoring IIRC. The Army used to have rear area protection/rear area combat operations (RAP/RACO) units--it was a secondary mission for sustainment/MP forces in the rear (back in the days of linear battlefields in Europe with Spetsnaz trying to disrupt our rear area activities.

  9. #9
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    I have a question for all. First the importance of Military Police in SASO seems to have been down played. By that I mean instead of tasking other units to do this or creating a multi-purpose Artillery unit, why don't we just increase the size of MP units?
    Just use those cannon cockers and civilian kitchen staff.

    Don't you know police work doesn't require any training. I mean it's just like artillery or tanks. You just point here, push that, and things are obliterated. Law enforcement operations with military personnel are a piece of cake. Anybody can be a cop.


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    Default A possibly related thought on the personnel system

    From my outsider POV, it looks like one generally gets (approximately) 30 years on active duty before you're retired. Combine that with age limits, probably less.

    And meanwhile I see 70 year olds running marathons and such so often it barely makes the news.

    ...Might a "good first step" be to eliminate time-in-service and age restrictions, and instead base mandatory retirement on health factors? It really does seem like as soon as someone makes a degree of headway, they hit the age limit and are retired.

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    Council Member SteveMetz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    Just use those cannon cockers and civilian kitchen staff.

    Don't you know police work doesn't require any training. I mean it's just like artillery or tanks. You just point here, push that, and things are obliterated. Law enforcement operations with military personnel are a piece of cake. Anybody can be a cop.


    Egads I think I'm choking on my own sarcasm.

    Don't scoff. In Baghdad late April 2003 I came to a check point that was manned with a Paladin. The gun was lowered to the horizontal, direct fire position. I imagine one of those firing into your windshield from 20 meters would get your attention.

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    Council Member wm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Thornton View Post
    Hey Ken - wondering where you'd been lurking at - thought I'd see if we could get you out

    Do you really think its egos like we normally think of them? Could it be egos and lack of contextual understanding that prevents us from looking deeper and asking things like: - "wonder why they did things like that?" - until like/similiar conditions roll around and then we say - "hey that sort of makes sense."

    I'd not heard about the switch from GPF to MPF. If I took something else like machine guns - and went from GPMG to MPMG would that change the nature and capabilities of that thing, or just the term we used to describe it? The GPMG thing is a bad analogy on my part- machines are not people. Maybe I can answer the broader question I just asked myself - at least take a stab - using the MEU analogy:

    General -would mean - good for everything equally, not so good for any thing in particular (goes with the defend everywhere/not strong anywhere) whereas

    Multi-Purpose might mean on a particular training cycle the unit was tailored for a specific range - multiple purposes/multi-missions, but not all - like when a MEU SOC does its train up.

    This would allow units to be resourced beyond their base MTO&E & train on a range of METL tasks for that cycle - you could have several in the hopper with a different ranges based on the close in Strategic Intel assessment (which is going to be closer to getting it right then one that attempts to go beyond say 6 months to a year) - kind of like standing JTFs.
    Regarding the relearning issue--I suspect it is the centralized selection process and up or out promotion system that requires one to do something "different" (even though it really isn't) in order to get a good report card and stand out from one's peers to get picked up for those career enhancing nominative assignments and promotions more than ego that is the reason for all the wheel re-invention we do (unless we equate ego to getting promoted to as high a rank as possible, regardless of actual ability).

    My take on GPF vs. MPF:
    GPF = jack of all trades, master of none.
    MPF = jack of many trades, master of some. Combat engineers are MPF--they really can fight as infantry when required

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    This is a great thread. Two separate points, which I'll weigh in on with different posts.

    Re: D3A, EBO, and the targeting cycle - MAJ Thornton was helpful to me offline on this topic (and a couple of others) a couple of weeks ago. Steve, respectfully, I'm not sure that it's realistic to say that all D3A "melts away" all the problems, or that it's some sort of strategic\operational\tactical panacea.

    Rob made some points that, in my mind, makes it more useful as a decision aid than perhaps I had previously considered, and I acknowledge my lack of real world experience with it in the field. I get the importance of decision aids in a chaotic, complex tactical environment. And "targeting" has always been done, formally or informally, whatever buzzwords are hung on it. But I still think that some sort of catch all matrix for "effects", where lethal and non-lethal "fires" are simply levers to be pulled, vastly over-simplifies this.

    This is a fairly active argument, with different takes on it being represented in the outgoing and incoming commanders at JFCOM. Rob bridges the gap by acknowledging the friction and complexity. I have no trouble believing that some sort of hybrid approach where both

    -a formalized targeting process is used,
    -great care is taken in pushing commander's intent down to the lowest level

    is the most appropriate solution. But I just don't see where EBO (as I understand it) accurately reflects the choices a commander has to make.

    There are a couple reasons for my take on this. The lesser concern is that D3A might - subtly - drive higher echelons to keep chasing the HVT at the expense of lower level initiative and freedom of action. This is a lesser concern because strong leadership would probably prevent this, and in the absence of strong leadership, a matrix is probably not the most pressing concern.

    But the bigger issue, that no one has really explained (to me) how to work around, is that the "Assess" phase is forced to fit into the unit's preferred battle rhythm.

    That may not sound like that big of a deal. But I keep coming back to Information Operations (more accurately Psyops). Civilian side, I'm a web analytics specialist. Basically, I develop and assess metrics in support of marketing of web services, e.g. USAA's web site. There's a lot of overlap between IO and marketing, a point made in a somewhat different context in the Trent-Doty piece in the July-August 2005 Military Review. Broad marketing efforts simply CAN NOT be assessed that cleanly and quickly, and I would argue the same applies to any kind of well thought out IO plan. Oh, you can assess, briefly, a single promotion. But that has to be trended over time, coupled with long term "brand" research and lots of other things filled with buzzwords IOT get an accurate picture. And that's in a vastly less complex, ambiguous environment.

    IO is supposed to be a key focus in COIN. In fact, if you were to retool the "Battlefield Operating Systems" (FMs 3-0, 5-0, 6-0) for a population focused environment, it would probably be an Operating System of it's own, instead of simply being lumped in with Fires. It might be employed separately or in conjunction with other types of ops. Measuring success\failure will likely be murky and take a long time. Given those things - I simply don't see how D3A gets you to where you need to be, at least not by itself.

    And that's just IO, which I mention because of my marketing experience. The same is true of

    -Civic Projects (CERP\PRTs\whatever), which will likely take a long time to unfold
    -ISR, where patterns that unfold in a few days at a CTC might take months downrange
    -and lots of other things

    IIRC, I read a piece where the "preferred" cycle for EBO was three weeks. A smart commander could and probably would tailor that. But I can get the image out of my head of a frustrated commander either

    -yelling "Repeat" at the trooper with the handbills or
    -writing off a promising COA after a couple of weeks because "Assess" was coming up murky, particularly if higher was pushing hard

    Am I misunderstanding something? Or lacking the experience to put it into context? Because every time I consider lumping IO (and other effects) into a Fires focused targeting process, my skin crawls.

  14. #14
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Rodgers View Post
    This is a great thread. Two separate points, which I'll weigh in on with different posts.

    Re: D3A, EBO, and the targeting cycle - MAJ Thornton was helpful to me offline on this topic (and a couple of others) a couple of weeks ago. Steve, respectfully, I'm not sure that it's realistic to say that all D3A "melts away" all the problems, or that it's some sort of strategic\operational\tactical panacea.

    Rob made some points that, in my mind, makes it more useful as a decision aid than perhaps I had previously considered, and I acknowledge my lack of real world experience with it in the field. I get the importance of decision aids in a chaotic, complex tactical environment. And "targeting" has always been done, formally or informally, whatever buzzwords are hung on it. But I still think that some sort of catch all matrix for "effects", where lethal and non-lethal "fires" are simply levers to be pulled, vastly over-simplifies this.

    This is a fairly active argument, with different takes on it being represented in the outgoing and incoming commanders at JFCOM. Rob bridges the gap by acknowledging the friction and complexity. I have no trouble believing that some sort of hybrid approach where both

    -a formalized targeting process is used,
    -great care is taken in pushing commander's intent down to the lowest level

    is the most appropriate solution. But I just don't see where EBO (as I understand it) accurately reflects the choices a commander has to make.

    There are a couple reasons for my take on this. The lesser concern is that D3A might - subtly - drive higher echelons to keep chasing the HVT at the expense of lower level initiative and freedom of action. This is a lesser concern because strong leadership would probably prevent this, and in the absence of strong leadership, a matrix is probably not the most pressing concern.

    But the bigger issue, that no one has really explained (to me) how to work around, is that the "Assess" phase is forced to fit into the unit's preferred battle rhythm.

    That may not sound like that big of a deal. But I keep coming back to Information Operations (more accurately Psyops). Civilian side, I'm a web analytics specialist. Basically, I develop and assess metrics in support of marketing of web services, e.g. USAA's web site. There's a lot of overlap between IO and marketing, a point made in a somewhat different context in the Trent-Doty piece in the July-August 2005 Military Review. Broad marketing efforts simply CAN NOT be assessed that cleanly and quickly, and I would argue the same applies to any kind of well thought out IO plan. Oh, you can assess, briefly, a single promotion. But that has to be trended over time, coupled with long term "brand" research and lots of other things filled with buzzwords IOT get an accurate picture. And that's in a vastly less complex, ambiguous environment.

    IO is supposed to be a key focus in COIN. In fact, if you were to retool the "Battlefield Operating Systems" (FMs 3-0, 5-0, 6-0) for a population focused environment, it would probably be an Operating System of it's own, instead of simply being lumped in with Fires. It might be employed separately or in conjunction with other types of ops. Measuring success\failure will likely be murky and take a long time. Given those things - I simply don't see how D3A gets you to where you need to be, at least not by itself.

    And that's just IO, which I mention because of my marketing experience. The same is true of

    -Civic Projects (CERP\PRTs\whatever), which will likely take a long time to unfold
    -ISR, where patterns that unfold in a few days at a CTC might take months downrange
    -and lots of other things

    IIRC, I read a piece where the "preferred" cycle for EBO was three weeks. A smart commander could and probably would tailor that. But I can get the image out of my head of a frustrated commander either

    -yelling "Repeat" at the trooper with the handbills or
    -writing off a promising COA after a couple of weeks because "Assess" was coming up murky, particularly if higher was pushing hard

    Am I misunderstanding something? Or lacking the experience to put it into context? Because every time I consider lumping IO (and other effects) into a Fires focused targeting process, my skin crawls.

    Hi Jim, no you haven't missed anything you are tracking right on. My comment dealt strictly with the fact that between EBO and D3A...D3A is better and it is a lot simpler and will still achieve the same effect(pun intended) that is all I meant by it.

    Having said that, when EBO was first conceived it had several steps to it not just targeting. These steps in the process are pretty much gone so I wouldn't worry to much about it ( based upon the J9 EBA unclassified manual I read). To review the history though for something to be a true EBO operation you would have to have great intelligence,Precision Guided Munitions, the ability to attack all targets in parallel. All that had to be there or it was not likely to work out as it was originally conceived.

    It is no longer published but if you can find the Air Command and Staff College student handbook on planning the Air Campaign you would see how simple it really was. I have checked and the old handbook is no longer on line


    Point two and it is a big one EBO is based on systems theory (not chaos theory) if you don't believe in this it will not work. The hybrid theory of combing EBO with D3A will just make things more complicated in my opinion. D3A is already integrated in the MDMP and that would be a better choice. The worst thing is to make things more complicated which EBA is doing IMO. Hell I don't even understand that anymore. When did the military start attacking "Nodes" thats just non-sense IMO. They should have left PEMSI(I keep wanting to say Pepsi) as the 5 rings it has the same effect

    Final point. EBO in one word is why? Why will attacking this target lead you to your final objective. If you can't answer that... it might work out... but it probably want.

    Hope this helps or do you have more questions? Slap

    Here is a link to one of the best papers I ever read on the subject.
    http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...szafranski.htm
    Last edited by slapout9; 12-04-2007 at 02:48 AM. Reason: add link to paper

  15. #15
    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    We have the capability to do these things; the troops have the capability to absorb the training and do the tasks. If we spend wisely (not our strong point ) then we can provide an adequate number of Alt and Suppl Msn sets. If the Doctrine says do it, Congress will support it.

    The capability is there, all that's needed is the will in high places...

    Oh. Rob, the answer to your question is one word. We have to relearn things because of -- egos.
    I agree with you on both points. I don't think we give our soldiers as much credit as they deserve, or believe that they are as capable of taking on multiple complex missions. It is often the officers who, as you said, are parochial about their branch, that fail to fully appreciate this.

    There is more than ego. There is no glamour in stability operations ... being a glorified policeman, a "peacekeeper". Without that glamour the leadership does not want to do it and Congress doesn't want to pay for it.

    I am not sure if you could really use the same units that kicked in the door to immediately shift to providing security in a way that does not alienate the population, in a manner that co-opts any potential insurgency rather than reinforces thier themes. For the Infantry I don't think this is feasible or wise. I want them on the top of thier game. But some of the other units, like FA and ADA could make the shift. But I still have reservations on how to get the second, supplemental set of equipment into theater. It would also require the DIV HQ to be able to make that shift. But now I am just rambling.

    I remember seeing what we used to call RACO, Rear Area Combat Operations, slowly fall by the wayside. All the Corps support assets transitioned into front line units. We lost ASGs and the likes as more BCTs were built. Now we have the "Non-Contiguous Battlefield". To me, that just means that we have ceded control of sections of the battlefield to the enemy. I am wandering off down a rabbit hole but I feel that the two subjects are related. It seems to me that if we quit concentraing on lean and lethal we might make some progress toward a force that is capable of performing all the missions that we need to be able to handle.
    Last edited by TheCurmudgeon; 12-02-2007 at 11:30 PM.
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  16. #16
    Council Member Rob Thornton's Avatar
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    Default Considering MPF BCTs

    I can see it working out well -

    ex. BCT Alpha receives a mission that tells it to conduct FID in a COIN environment in country #1. During its MA it decides it needs X number of MiTTs, Y number of PTTs & SPTT, and Z number of PRTs (augmented with Inter-Agency folks and contractors). It develops at Task Org that puts one BN TF like organization for the MiTTs, one for the PTT & SPTTs, and one for the PRTs - this provides the C2 and support structure within each to plan, execute, coordinate resources for, and generally sustain all of those missions while securing its own LOCs. It might decide it needs to keep one or two company sized elements back for QRF like organizations, and one or two company sized elements back for FOB security of the BCT HQs and sustainment base (if not contracted or run by a higher HQs). This does not mean its OIF or OEF - it might be in support of AFRICOM or another Regional COCOM.

    From the moment of alert and initial MA - the training base moves to support the resources required - from hardware to movement - from language and cultural training, from Inter-Agency augmentees to a CTC like path that provides a MRE tailored to that mission.

    I believe we can do that!

    Meanwhile...

    HBCT Bravo get told to do TSC where it is told to go out and do a combination deterrence against a conventional threat to an ally while conducting TSC by helping them train their conventional mechanized forces to secure their sovereignty - they also task organize accordingly based off their MA and the training base gets in line to assist and resource.

    and the list of possibilities goes on to include units training in CONUS and OCONUS against a suite of most likely enemy COAs, etc.

    I think that is an executable balance given the possibilities that exist, and well within our ability to execute - I do think getting the extra BCTs online is critical to meet the demand and have enough capability training n the various categories to meet the demand and have depth - but those can only be built so fast.

    Best, Rob
    Last edited by Rob Thornton; 12-02-2007 at 11:59 PM.

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    Council Member Rob Thornton's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    MPF = jack of many trades, master of some. Combat engineers are MPF--they really can fight as infantry when required
    Wayne- good catch! Sappers are among the most versatile and creative soldiers I know.

    Best, Rob

  18. #18
    Council Member Rob Thornton's Avatar
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    Default

    By that I mean instead of tasking other units to do this or creating a multi-purpose Artillery unit, why don't we just increase the size of MP units?
    I think we're getting there with the ways we're restructure the ME (maneuver enhancement) BDEs and also the BTSB (Brigade Special Troops BN) - which some BCTs have made good use of - but they had to work it to fit their needs. I'd also say some of these capabilities might be built in the ARNG because we get the dual use out of it - Title 10 and Title 32. Not much $$$$ though for states in IBCTs and ME BDEs with lots of MPs - hard to get some of that Title 10 money. It also means that when policy decides to do something where we anticipate a big Stability type commitment where we'd like to have lots of MPs - it means activating the ARNG - because that's where the "bulk" would reside. But again - it does fit with their Title 32 - enabling civil support type responsibilities. However you do it - the AC and RC components are going to be (and should be) interdependent - we just need to decide both what makes sense and what is doable in the face of state politics.
    Best, Rob

    Best, Rob

  19. #19
    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Thornton View Post
    I think we're getting there with the ways we're restructure the ME (maneuver enhancement) BDEs and also the BTSB (Brigade Special Troops BN) - which some BCTs have made good use of - but they had to work it to fit their needs.
    A CSB(ME) is exactly that, a support unit for Maneuver elements. The BSB is very maintenance heavy. It is not intended for this type of mission even though it is modular in concept. Besides, it falls under the Maneuver Division. A RASR would be a Corps asset. Ideally, it would have its own DIV HQ that would have a CMOC with an extended interagency capability.
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  20. #20
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    ...
    There is more than ego. There is no glamour in stability operations ... being a glorified policeman, a "peacekeeper". Without that glamour the leadership does not want to do it and Congress doesn't want to pay for it.
    Agree -- but I suggest the glamor aspect is partly ego. In fairness, there was / is a true concern for the troops and the institution (not necessarily in that order in all cases); COIN is ugly, tedious work. Certainly best avoided -- but not to the point of trying to deny one will ever do that mission.

    Congress doesn't want to pay for much of anything that won't benefit multiple districts. I've condemned them for that for over forty years. However, in fairness to them, the Army (and DoD) have gone along with that chicanery for that same forty years. It's a case of everyone remembering what their oath says and doing the right thing instead of the expedient thing. Ten years ago I despaired of that ever changing. Today, thanks to the internet and blogs like this, hope may be at hand.

    I am not sure if you could really use the same units that kicked in the door to immediately shift to providing security in a way that does not alienate the population, in a manner that co-opts any potential insurgency rather than reinforces thier themes. For the Infantry I don't think this is feasible or wise. I want them on the top of thier game...
    Done both as an Infantryman in two countries in different services, it's not at all hard to shift gears IF the troops are even reasonably well trained. We still do not train well, even though we're pretty much doing it better now than ever before.

    ...But some of the other units, like FA and ADA could make the shift. But I still have reservations on how to get the second, supplemental set of equipment into theater. It would also require the DIV HQ to be able to make that shift. But now I am just rambling.
    The 'second' set should be part of the MTOE and should deploy with the unit to the staging area for short term hold than rapid movement forward.

    I remember seeing what we used to call RACO, Rear Area Combat Operations, slowly fall by the wayside. All the Corps support assets transitioned into front line units...
    The MPs picked up the mission and did it well (even though DA did not resource them well for the mission until 2004) -- if Rumsfeld hadn't screwed with the TPFDL, there'd have been a reinforced MP Bde right behind 3d ID --- instead, there was one Bn. Micromangement has its flaws...

    We lost ASGs and the likes as more BCTs were built. Now we have the "Non-Contiguous Battlefield". To me, that just means that we have ceded control of sections of the battlefield to the enemy. I am wandering off down a rabbit hole but I feel that the two subjects are related. It seems to me that if we quit concentraing on lean and lethal we might make some progress toward a force that is capable of performing all the missions that we need to be able to handle.
    I'm not sure it's as bad as you think. Lot of serving folks I talk too think there's still too much tail. In any event, the non-contiguous battlefield is reality, not a question of ceding territory, it's a question of available bayonets. Fortunately, the ISTAR assets cover the holes and the MQ1-C, Guided GMLRS, Excalibur and some other toys should make it mostly a non-problem.

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