WeaponSurvey // Palestinian military capabilities

[SWCAdmin]

Received this promotional note from the editor at weaponsurvey.

Any thoughts?

WeaponSurvey <http://www.weaponsurvey.com/> offers readers a detailed presentation of Palestinian military capabilities by meticulously cataloging, analyzing and archiving relevant data, including:

* Rockets, Missiles & Mortars
* IEDs & EFPs (Improvised Explosive Devices & Explosively Formed Projectiles)
* SALW (Small Arms/Light Weapons)
* Chemical and Biological Agents
* Weapons Smuggling Tunnels
* Egypt-PA Border
* Terrorist Groups - Background Information
* Regional Scenario Projections
* Counter-Terrorism Technology

I hope you find the site to be a useful resource.

[Rex Brynen]

Received this promotional note from the editor at weaponsurvey.

Any thoughts?

The website is in large part mish-mash of recycled IDF statements and less-than-reliable (and often highly partisan) press coverage. They also take at face value the often silly, grandiose claims of Palestinian radicals about weapons and their alleged capabilities. (As an aside, it was said in Gaza that when Aaraft's wife, Suha, was pregnant with their daughter, six Palestinian factions claimed responsibility... )

For example:

In November 2004, Hamas revealed it was developing the first Palestinian anti-aircraft missile. According to Hamas operative Nizar Rayan, the missile would be used to down Israeli helicopters, UAV’s, and other aircraft operating above the Gaza Strip. Palestinian sources note the anti-aircraft missile project is based on expertise and training provided by Iran and Hizballah. Indeed, Hamas has sought to produce a variant of the Soviet-origin SA-7 - deployed by Hizbullah in southern Lebanon.

... is pretty revealing: anyone who knows anything about the enormous difficulty of developing an indigenous MANPAD, and the shortage of key materials (including reliable propellants and IR guidance electronics) will recognize it as extremely implausible RUMINT. Despite years of IDF claims about SAM-7s in the West Bank and Gaza, no one has yet to fire, find, or see one.

Elsewhere, the site conflates artillery rockets with anti-tank weapons, freely labels any 122mm locally-produced rocket as a "Grad" (even though they're typically made with pipe-casings and homebrew explosives that can't really be aimed and often fail to detonate), and shows a dramatic picture of a BM-21 firing although no Palestinian group in the WBG has MRLs. I could go on and on..

This isn't to say that the Palestinian rockets aren't an issue, but the website really doesn't offer any useful insight into inventories, capabilities, employment, or implications.

Oh, and they cite DEBKAfile, which I know is an OS favourite of Ted's

[Sean Osborne]

Received this promotional note from the editor at weaponsurvey.

Any thoughts?

WeaponSurvey.com is an excellent resource, particularly for this community with respect to its focus on the Israeli-Arab conflict.

WeaponSurvey's data is, quite obviously, from the Israeli perspective. It is this perspective which is an obvious prejudicial problem for an Arabist like Rex Brynen. What else is new?

However, when it comes to the data presented on WeaponSurvey - there is quite simply nothing like it on the world wide web, and the website is indeed a valuable resource for this community. No question about it.

[tequila]

Nothing wrong with an Israeli perspective. What appears troublesome is the BS perspective, which Prof Brynen pointed out and your post has done nothing to dispel beyond accusing him of pro-Arab sympathies.

[Steve Blair]

WeaponSurvey.com is an excellent resource, particularly for this community with respect to its focus on the Israeli-Arab conflict.

WeaponSurvey's data is, quite obviously, from the Israeli perspective. It is this perspective which is an obvious prejudicial problem for an Arabist like Rex Brynen. What else is new?

However, when it comes to the data presented on WeaponSurvey - there is quite simply nothing like it on the world wide web, and the website is indeed a valuable resource for this community. No question about it.

If you have a dispute with the accuracy of the data, please feel free to comment. If you're going to attack other posters, please refrain.

[Sean Osborne]

tequila,

Excellent - nothing wrong with an Israeli perspective, I concur. That's what I like to see in a forum: even-handed consideration of all-resources utilized in OSINT evaluation of data.

What I don't quite understand is the "BS perspective" you're talking about.

Rex Brynen said, what... that WeaponSurvey.com is

in large part mish-mash of recycled IDF statements

No, absolutely, it is not. Look at the website and all the material within it. It is not "in large part mish-mash of recycled IDF statements." It's much more than that as any objective visitor to the website can clearly see. There are several comments posted from the IDF Spokesperson Office - that is decidedly the Israeli perspective. However the preponderence of data posted to the Weapon Survey - and I am just going to cite the past 30 days of entries here for brevity sake- are attibuted to the following sources:

Reuters
The Guardian
Boeing Corporation
Lockheed-Martin Corporation
Agence France-Presse
FARS
US Congressional Research Service (CRS)
HAMAS website
Ratheon Corporation
Jerusalem Post
Associated Press
Ha'aretz
JCPA
Ma'an (Palestinian) News Agency
Globes
United Kingdom Ministry of Defense
BBC

This is what Rex assails as "large part mish-mash of recycled IDF statements and less-than-reliable (and often highly partisan) press coverage."

Clearly and obviously Rex was grossly incorrect, a point which I have just conclusively proven beyond any doubt. Which of the above OSINT items posted to WeaponSurvey.com in the past month are "less-than-reliable"? Please name at least one out of the above seventeen sources since Rex did not bother to itemize any of these in his smear of Aharon Etengoff's website.

Therefore the pro-Arab prejudicial bias I originally referenced seems quite applicable. It as with anything considered - one must first and foremost CONSIDER THE SOURCE.

As far as Rex's apparent pro-Arab sympathies goes, while not germane to the gist of this thread topic, I'll ask you... Have you seen who Rex has co-authored books with?

Roula el-Rifai
Bassel Salloukh
Bahgat Korany

Are any of these individuals an Israeli citizen? How about even one? Is even one ofthen Jewish? How about Christian? Are they all Arabs?


Steve Blair,

My intent was not to "attack" Rex, but to honestly state my own assessment. Rex did, in fact, attack the work of my friend Aharon Etengoff. It is my opinion that Rex is pro-Arab. My purpose was and remains to acknowledge WeaponSurvey.com as an excellent resource.

[SWCAdmin]

Sean Osborne, you've made your point. Eventually.

I wish you had done so more substantively out of the chute, rather than putting it behind a petty little sledge hammer and delivering it that way as your first post out of the chute.

You're welcome to stick around and have, and express, almost any opinions you want. Just please be less of a dick about it.

Rex Brynen is a council member in good standing. And a big boy. He can take the BS, but shouldn't have to. As for the substantive disagreement, carry on.

[SWCAdmin]

P.S. once past the artfulness of their delivery, there remain two very different opinions here on the viability and balance of the site. Any more opinions on the heart of the issue here -- WeaponsSurvey usefulness, balance, etc. -- are welcome.

Clearly where you stand is influence by where you sit. We are not immune to that here, either.

[Rex Brynen]

One thing that I know worries IDF planners contemplating a Gaza ground operation is the extent to which Hamas has learned to apply IED lessons from Lebanon and especially Iraq.

Politically, Israel is enormously sensitive to military casualties. A single deep-buried IED that destroys a Merkava or APC can rapidly transform military success into a political liability. There had been a few cases of this pre-Gaza disengagement, but its clear now that both the demonstration effect of IED use elsewhere coupled with greater access to explosives, better preparation time, tunneling under key access roads, etc. makes this much more of a potential challenge.

While it is hardly the major factor shaping Israeli punitive and retaliatory strategy (post-Annapolis diplomatic developments are far, far more important), it does increase the political risk of a ground operation.

It also points to the significance of Iraq-style tactics spreading further afield (not that many of them are really new, but access to both examples and technical knowledge has certainly proliferated).

[Stan]

Overall, the website is easy to navigate but lacks any detailed data on IEDs and modified projectiles. The references should contain direct links to articles, etc.

The single jpeg and accompanying text of ‘hand-made’ mortars for example, does not adequately source or detail information (the jpeg certainly does not contain 240mm mortars hoisted on one’s shoulders for parades). If these mortars were indeed hand-made, were the fuses also hand-made, and what was the recorded forensic breakdown of the explosives?

The references contain plenty of news quotes without links to the pertinent articles. Journalists aside for a second, what did Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Ratheon and The UK MOD have to say about IEDs and modified Projectiles ?

In sum, I’m looking for more detailed, sourced and analyzed information.

[Ron Humphrey]

Received this promotional note from the editor at weaponsurvey.

Any thoughts?

Although the site does offer some interesting options and quite a bit of information, my gut reaction to the wholistic aspect of it is that it spends a lot of time focused on Israeli concerns, fears, weaknesses, and defining claimed strengths and capabilities of various terror organizations. Also the analytic aspects of weapons defined do leave quite a bit to be desired in detail.

Also just a note to Sean although it doesn't necessarily mean anything; the fact that one is given front page exposure on a site might lead some to consider ones ability to remain completely objective as to its overall usefulness.

That being said I think I will continue to review it for a while before making a final decision for myself.

Just my 1 1/2 ....

[Sean Osborne]

Although the site does offer some interesting options and quite a bit of information...

Yes, it does

my gut reaction to the wholistic aspect of it is that it spends a lot of time focused on Israeli concerns, fears, weaknesses, and defining claimed strengths and capabilities of various terror organizations.

Yeah, roger. I stated from the get-go that "WeaponSurvey's data is, quite obviously, from the Israeli perspective." I would expect nothing less from a former IDF soldier.

Also the analytic aspects of weapons defined do leave quite a bit to be desired in detail.

Well, when you find a website that fulfills your desires with respect to details on Palestinian weapons - please inform us of of it. Yet I think below you state that you've yet to arrive at a final decision.

Also just a note to Sean although it doesn't necessarily mean anything; the fact that one is given front page exposure on a site might lead some to consider ones ability to remain completely objective as to its overall usefulness.

Were friends, colleagues, have shared interests and we've both worn the military uniforms of our respective nations and been in harms way in the Middle East. That's my objectivity in a nutshell.

As a matter of curiosity, I wonder how many others interested in this thread topic can make a similar statement?

That being said I think I will continue to review it for a while before making a final decision for myself.

Good call. Enjoy the site.

Given that a full-scale war in the Middle East remains a very likely prospect in the near-term, the site may be of more value than many now realize.

[Rex Brynen]

Given that a full-scale war in the Middle East remains a very likely prospect in the near-term, the site may be of more value than many now realize.

Might I ask between whom?

Is this somehow related to the jihadist plot to use 17 stolen school buses, dead birds, exploding gas pipelines, and Metro power outages to destroy America?

[Stan]

Rex, are you sure you have the correct link ? Almost all the hyperlinks (there) go to Deals - Dot - Com and some go to

This site is no longer in service or has been disabled due to a terms of service violation

Is this somehow related to the jihadist plot to use 17 stolen school buses, dead birds, exploding gas pipelines, and Metro power outages to destroy America?

[Sean Osborne]

Rex, are you sure you have the correct link ? Almost all the hyperlinks (there) go to Deals - Dot - Com and some go to

Stan,

Ordinarily I defer from responding to obvious baiting and trolling, but in the potential chance that you do have a technical issue...

Check your PC or Laptop for a proper internet connection. The link provided by Rex - and within your quote including that same link - is fully functional.
0h for Two must be indicative of "operator error."

[Sean Osborne]

Might I ask between whom?

With respect to my statement:

Given that a full-scale war in the Middle East remains a very likely prospect in the near-term, the site may be of more value than many now realize.

The "whom" I am referring to is the prospect of a near-term war between Israel and Syria (backed by Iran, and supported by Palestinian terrorists in the WB & G, and Hezbollah in southern Lebanon). Palestinian weapons inventory, indigenously manufactured or smuggled, would figure prominently in any conflict. Obviously so.

Is this somehow related to the jihadist plot to use 17 stolen school buses, dead birds, exploding gas pipelines, and Metro power outages to destroy America?

No, the potential prospect of war in the Middle East has no direct relation to potential Islamic insurgency issues in the US homeland which you cite from my report.

However, Islamic terrorism in the US homeland is indirectly related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is due to the fact that Islam is currently in an active phase of insurgency against all states in the Judeo-Christian west.

America just happens to be a target of Islamic Jihadism in addition to Israel. Should war or military operations between the US and Iran occur (in preemption of Iranian nuclear weapons ambition - it is a virtual certainty that Hezbollah and Al Qaeda, and perhaps HAMAS operative in this country would act against our infrastructure. No doubt about it.

[Ken White]

. . .
As a matter of curiosity, I wonder how many others interested in this thread topic can make a similar statement?

Many may be interested but not commenting.

Is the adversarial tone really necessary?

[Stan]

IED's have not been a mainstay of Palestinian terrorist weaponry, therefore the lack of any data relevant to "Palestinian Weapons Production & Smuggling" is similarly limited. With respect to modified projectiles, they are abundantly referenced in production by HAMAS and other Palestinian terrorist groups. Direct links are not a requirement, but abuntantly referenced material is a manistay of this website.

The website boasts archived relevant data and lists number two with IEDs and EFPs. If there's such a huge information void, why bother listing said? Fact is direct links are but common courtesy to the readers (if the site claims abundant reference material, why not link(s) to quickly assist readers ?).

Based on the advertisement below...I don't get it

WeaponSurvey <http://www.weaponsurvey.com/> offers readers a detailed presentation of Palestinian military capabilities by meticulously cataloging, analyzing and archiving relevant data, including:

* Rockets, Missiles & Mortars
* IEDs & EFPs (Improvised Explosive Devices & Explosively Formed Projectiles)

I hope you find the site to be a useful resource.

You'll have to be more specific here. I've seen nothing on WeaponSurey.com with a single jpeg that has an accompanying text on 'hand-made" mortars. There is a "Mortar" section which references "Various Palestinian terror groups manufacture mortars in workshops and factories throughout the Gaza Strip" but this speaks to large-scale manufacturing, not "hand-made" per se. There is nothing in the text which even suggests the shoulder-borne mortar rounds in the jpeg image are the Sariya-1 240mm heavy mortar. However, a Google search with "Sariya-1" as the search criteria will show that there is virtually no detailed information on this weapon anywhere on the web. There is a link to request detailed information at the bottom of the page should your requirements need extra detail.

If you page down to mortars (there's only one jpeg), the only text that is at all specific regarding mortar dimensions is just below the picture. That's misleading to the common (non-military) reader. Hand-made was a bad choice of words on my part, but ‘manufacturing in workshops and factories throughout the Gaza Strip’ should be supported with references and links. A short caption below the jpeg and before the accompanying text would clarify the picture prior to mentioning 240mm mortars.

You'll As stated, the references are abundant for any determined researcher who wishes to check facts. Regarding Boeing, Lockhhed-Martin, Raytheon and the UK MoD and IED's or modified projectiles - nothing was said or even intimated by WeaponSurvey.com. IED's first appear in this thread in Rex' post above.

That’s just the point ! I am not a determined researcher and certainly not interested in checking the facts at weapon survey. Folks at Boeing and the UK’s MOD normally do however check their facts before releasing said to the general public. Hence my particular interest in their views. IEDs first appeared in this thread from the very beginning, and not with Rex.

Good luck in finding more "detailed, sourced and analyzed information" specific to the genre of Palestinian weapons which is available for free on the world wide web. I assure you - other than WeaponSurvey.com - it does not exist.

This is not a shopping excursion. The site boasts IED info, but yet doesn’t have any. Better to remove that sub category until such time as info is posted.

[Sean Osborne]

The site boasts IED info, but yet doesn’t have any.

The site doesn't "boast" any such thing with respect to IED's. It lists IEDs and EFPs among the other bulleted items.

And I certainly did not say it doesn't have an IED section as you have.

It does.

I said "IEDs have not been a mainstay of Palestinian terrorist weaponry, therefore the lack of any data relevant to "Palestinian Weapons Production & Smuggling" is similarly limited."

There is a section on IED's. You'll find it HERE.

[Stan]

Thanks for the link to a shape charge, M2HB and landmine.

There is a section on IED's. You'll find it HERE.

As Ken so eloquently stated, quite a few, but how many are interested in commented or getting into a pissin' contest.

Were friends, colleagues, have shared interests and we've both worn the military uniforms of our respective nations and been in harms way in the Middle East...

...As a matter of curiosity, I wonder how many others interested in this thread topic can make a similar statement?